Train nationalisation or not ?
- Thread starter hifinutt
- Start date
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Anything that can reasonably be described as 'critical national infrastructure' should not be in private hands. This is covered in National Security 101, surely? I would say also that, in the case of the rail system, it's not enough to have the track, signalling, stations, etc in national hands, the services which use that system also need to be incapable of interference from parties which may not share this country's best interests.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
That rules out the current government then.
Minio
Kind of Sort of Not really...
On my recent Norwich to East Croydon trip I was quite astounded at how things have modernised.
Shock absorbers between carriages. Fast, smooth all electric trains. Bang on time at both ends.
13 amp plugs, wifi, refreshments, hot coffee, clean toilets.
London, and a touch of your credit card gives unlimited all day travel within zone 5 for £10.50
Very enjoyable.
Shock absorbers between carriages. Fast, smooth all electric trains. Bang on time at both ends.
13 amp plugs, wifi, refreshments, hot coffee, clean toilets.
London, and a touch of your credit card gives unlimited all day travel within zone 5 for £10.50
Very enjoyable.
They could look at what Italy did.
FS, the national operator, remains as a semi-state company with the government as major shareholder. That company owns the network, and it also owns Trenitalia, the largest passenger service operator, but private companies are allowed, and encouraged, to run services in competition. Unlike the UK, any operator can run a service anywhere in the country: there are none of the regional monopolies that have destroyed service quality in the UK.
The competition keeps Trenitalia honest, and it keeps prices low, and increased ridership overall has allowed for greater investment in the rail network.
The big mistake in the UK was parcelling up a viable network and creating a collection of smaller ones with lower economies of scale that had to cut investment or jack up prices just to survive.. and because the franchises were exclusive within geographic areas, it locked out competition, despite competition being the only legitimate reason for allowing private companies into the rail service in the first place.
FS, the national operator, remains as a semi-state company with the government as major shareholder. That company owns the network, and it also owns Trenitalia, the largest passenger service operator, but private companies are allowed, and encouraged, to run services in competition. Unlike the UK, any operator can run a service anywhere in the country: there are none of the regional monopolies that have destroyed service quality in the UK.
The competition keeps Trenitalia honest, and it keeps prices low, and increased ridership overall has allowed for greater investment in the rail network.
The big mistake in the UK was parcelling up a viable network and creating a collection of smaller ones with lower economies of scale that had to cut investment or jack up prices just to survive.. and because the franchises were exclusive within geographic areas, it locked out competition, despite competition being the only legitimate reason for allowing private companies into the rail service in the first place.
Paul L
coffee lounge for me
You’d hope so but the large scale foreign investment would canvass our government of the day directly or the politicians for sale type of influencing.
hifinutt
hifinutt
taxi to Birmingham is about £15 [ 3 miles ] advance single birmingham to marylbone with a railcard is £10.55 116 miles . rather good vfm i think
hifinutt
hifinutt
there is no competition to Royal mail because they couldnt transport a first class letter for 1.35 [ cost of a stamp] maybe ?
In a nutshell, the Royal Mails customers are the 26.5m-27m addresses to which they deliver. If you introduce a second delivery agent, you have to divide that by two, so no one wanted to take it on. Also there is no chance that the 27m addresses will ever increase.
Today another problem is decreasing mail volumes. I believe 40% of total delivery takes place in Nov/Dec and only a fool would willingly enter that sort of market.
Darth Vader
From the Dark Side
When I joined the GPO in 1963 I was told during the induction course that they could only provide such a good postal service as the loss making service was subsidised by the profit making telecoms business. Then the telecoms side was sold off and the rest as they say is history.
DV
gez
pfm Member
The issue is that privatisation hasn't actually brought true competition. In the majority of cases if you want to travel to destination X you only have the choice of a single train company to use, or maybe two.
By the way the actual rail infrastructure is run by a public sector company, so in practice not much has changed in that regard.
By the way the actual rail infrastructure is run by a public sector company, so in practice not much has changed in that regard.
Darmok
pfm Member
^^ This...It always amazes me that the UK, which gave the world the railways, has made such a howling mess of them. It was the British who laid out the basis for the Swiss railway system in the min-19th century, and this has developed into one of the world's best systems, in fact, as one commentator described it, Switzerland in reality is one giant train set, in which succeeding generations of fathers and sons have added new rolling stock and track.
The Swiss recognise the railway as a valuable public service and are prepared to spend serious money to make sure that they all work well and have the latest equipment. Something like 50% of Switzerland's railway mileage is in private hands, but the federal and cantonal governments are prepared to put their hands in their pockets and help out with major projects. One recent example is the second Albula Tunnel. The Rhätische Bahn in canton Graubünden in eastern Switzerland is the second biggest railway network after the federal SBB and its century-old Albula Tunnel en route to St. Moritz was becoming dangerous. The solution? Bore another one alongside it and once that is in operation repair the old one. The technical problems were immense - it including freezing the strata through which water was coming but it is nearly complete:
Aktuelles
Die aktuellsten Informationen rund um den Neubau des Albulatunnels für Sie zusammengefasst.www.rhb.ch
The Swiss can make this mixed public/private system work very well, so why not the UK? It always seems to come down to penny-pinching. I remember when high-speed railways became an issue. The UK tried to do it with the APT, running on normal track, and we all know what happened to that. On the other side of La Manche, the SNCF jumped in, boots and all, and built a custom track for exclusively high-speed trains. We know whose approach worked.
The British peoples' taxes paid for all of the track line laying nationwide.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I know I bang on about Japanese trains all the time but it's interesting to me as an example of how things can be done differently. Japan privatised Japan Rail in the 1990s but there doesn't seem to have been any degradation of service. A lot of rail companies that were always private concerns are also generally also excellent.
There are also loads of tiny rural 'third sector' lines - often only a few km of track that are jointly owned by private firms and local government. Many of these really struggle but efforts are made to keep them open because of the benefits they bring the local community. As a passenger these are some of my favourite trains to catch. Often only a single carriage, often travelling through stunning countryside, with small stations with local produce for sale.
I'm not sure what the difference is with trains in the UK apart from a much greater emphasis on providing a service.
It always amazes me that the UK, which gave the world the railways, has made such a howling mess of them. It was the British who laid out the basis for the Swiss railway system in the min-19th century, and this has developed into one of the world's best systems, in fact, as one commentator described it, Switzerland in reality is one giant train set, in which succeeding generations of fathers and sons have added new rolling stock and track.
The Swiss recognise the railway as a valuable public service and are prepared to spend serious money to make sure that they all work well and have the latest equipment. Something like 50% of Switzerland's railway mileage is in private hands, but the federal and cantonal governments are prepared to put their hands in their pockets and help out with major projects. One recent example is the second Albula Tunnel. The Rhätische Bahn in canton Graubünden in eastern Switzerland is the second biggest railway network after the federal SBB and its century-old Albula Tunnel en route to St. Moritz was becoming dangerous. The solution? Bore another one alongside it and once that is in operation repair the old one. The technical problems were immense - it including freezing the strata through which water was coming but it is nearly complete:
Aktuelles
Die aktuellsten Informationen rund um den Neubau des Albulatunnels für Sie zusammengefasst.
The Swiss can make this mixed public/private system work very well, so why not the UK? It always seems to come down to penny-pinching. I remember when high-speed railways became an issue. The UK tried to do it with the APT, running on normal track, and we all know what happened to that. On the other side of La Manche, the SNCF jumped in, boots and all, and built a custom track for exclusively high-speed trains. We know whose approach worked.
We seem to be a nation good at inventing things but not perfecting/running them.
Maybe we should get the Swiss in to run it for us?
Minio
Kind of Sort of Not really...
Originally Victorian industrialists financed the British railway network.
Where they got their money from is another podcast series entirely.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
As the old saying goes...
Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the mechanics German, the lovers Italian and it's all organised by the Swiss.
Hell is where the chefs are British, the mechanics French, the lovers Swiss, the police German and it's all organised by the Italians.
I joined the PO in 1982 and by then it was making a damn good profit. I was with it for 22 years and they made a loss of £450mm for one year only.