Tom's Hardware DAC Test.

[Mikas]

Tom's Hardware is independent of any Hifi equipment manufacturer. Their main focus is of course computers hardware.

For subtle differences, quick A, B testing sometimes is not the best approach.
I believe for subbtle differences it works better for someone to get used to a sound~, preferably over some weeks or months, and only then replace the equipment for comparison for some weeks more.

I believe this is how it works better when differences are subbtle and we don't know where to look for them.

Michael

 

[Julf]

I believe for subbtle differences it works better for someone to get used to a sound~, preferably over some weeks or months, and only then replace the equipment for comparison for some weeks more.

I believe this is how it works better when differences are subbtle and we don't know where to look for them.

I think this is one of the hardest things to try to explain to a non-audiophile who will just ask "if the difference is so subtle that you can't hear it in an A/B test, does it really matter from the point of enjoying the music"?

 

[Mikas]

I think this is one of the hardest things to try to explain to a non-audiophile who will just ask "if the difference is so subtle that you can't hear it in an A/B test, does it really matter from the point of enjoying the music"?

Trained listeners (usually audio recording engineers), will spot differences with A/B tests.
But I agree with you. It's difficult to explain, and it is because there's really a point to it.
Are we so concerned about the sound little subtleties that we forget to enjoy the music? I don't want to agree with this. I believe sound subtleties help us to enjoy the music on a different, perhaps more profound level.

But music artists and industry don't care about it anyway.
The big majority of music consumers enjoy the music on notebooks, standard car radios, mp3 players or smartphones with average/poor earphones, and many times from poor quality sources like Youtube/Facebook.
This also explains the loudness wars and general loss of quality on some master recordings. :/

Michael

 

[Dowser]

I think this is one of the hardest things to try to explain to a non-audiophile who will just ask "if the difference is so subtle that you can't hear it in an A/B test, does it really matter from the point of enjoying the music"?

Is this self admission that you are a non-audiophile Julf?

I actually believe this is the crux of the matter in lots of the cyclic issues on PFM - for some those subtleties really do not factor into their listening experience at all, whereas for others they do.

I find quick A/B testing is good to identify differences in frequency response between components, but at the end of the day I will always audition new kit over an extended period before swapping back in the original item, again for an extended period, before deciding which I prefer.

Richard

 

[Igloo Audio]

I think this is one of the hardest things to try to explain to a non-audiophile who will just ask "if the difference is so subtle that you can't hear it in an A/B test, does it really matter from the point of enjoying the music"?

As they say, ignorance is bliss.

It's hard to imagine anyone going beyond a Sonos but, if I were to point-out a failing or two it's very likely a non-audiophile could pick this out in an A/B and would possibly want to upgrade. He then would become an audiophile, I guess

Peter

 

[therixonator]

As they say, ignorance is bliss.

It's hard to imagine anyone going beyond a Sonos but, if I were to point-out a failing or two it's very likely a non-audiophile could pick this out in an A/B and would possibly want to upgrade. He then would become an audiophile, I guess

Peter

When you say going beyond a Sonos, what do you mean?

If I compare my Sonos Connect (optical out) vs. my PC (usb out) both outputting the same flac file and passing the bit perfect test on my Mdac, I can't reliably pick either out. I've tried a few different tests. I think I like the PC more when I've ran longer tests but they've not be blind and I'm sure expectation bias subconsciously creeps in.

 

[Igloo Audio]

When you say going beyond a Sonos, what do you mean?

If I compare my Sonos Connect (optical out) vs. my PC (usb out) both outputting the same flac file and passing the bit perfect test on my Mdac, I can't reliably pick either out. I've tried a few different tests. I think I like the PC more when I've ran longer tests but they've not be blind and I'm sure expectation bias subconsciously creeps in.

In terms of sound quality.

MAC/PC > High End DAC is quite different in some important aspects, though the Sonos is surprisingly close, albeit the converter has a flat response.

Peter

 

[F1eng]

I consider myself an audiophile but not to the extent of choosing what I will listen to next on sound quality grounds. I have many recordings which are many times inferior in sound quality than any two pieces of hifi kit relative to other recordings I own yet I still listen to them. I'd sooner listen to Schubert on my phone than "born in the USA" on the best hifi in the world...

 

[Igloo Audio]

I consider myself an audiophile but not to the extent of choosing what I will listen to next on sound quality grounds. I have many recordings which are many times inferior in sound quality than any two pieces of hifi kit relative to other recordings I own yet I still listen to them. I'd sooner listen to Schubert on my phone than "born in the USA" on the best hifi in the world...

Agreed.

Speakers & recording: you shouldn't lose too much sleep over the rest.

Peter

 

[jjmarriott]

I use a squeezebox for streaming and am constantly wondering if an external DAC would improve it further. What are people's thoughts on this based upon this review?

 

[Julf]

I use a squeezebox for streaming and am constantly wondering if an external DAC would improve it further. What are people's thoughts on this based upon this review?

I have tried several external DACs on my squeezebox touches. No major difference.

 

[Julf]

Is this self admission that you are a non-audiophile Julf?

Depends on who you ask. Compared to a lot of the more extreme people on audiophile forums, I am a non-audiophile, but if you ask my wife, she would say "for heaven's sake, stop fiddling and just enjoy the music".

 

[Igloo Audio]

I use a squeezebox for streaming and am constantly wondering if an external DAC would improve it further. What are people's thoughts on this based upon this review?

A Metrum Octave or Hex could be a revelation, or indeed if replacing a preamp with an excellent DAC/Pre like the Eximus DP1. It's all dependent on the system and set-up. There's always room to wiggle improvements for those closely listening to the music!

Peter

 

[darrenyeats]

All IMHO subjectively compared as DAC-pre into actives, I have no separate preamp. The Touch is indeed a well sorted unit. It measures well and it sounds good. I prefer S/PDIF to a Benchmark DAC1 that I have set up in a very non-factory config (http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=137152). In several areas I prefer the Touch to the DAC1 if the DAC1 is in factory config. The Touch is subtle, natural, resolving of vocals, composed in crescendos, refined at the top with good imaging between speakers, but a bit polite at the frequency extremes and compact in sound stage presentation.

It might be that into a dedicated pre some of these differences could disappear. I'm not sure.

You might find a DAC with a bigger, bolder and more expansive sound but to do that without compromising areas that are the Touch's strengths might be tricky.

 

[adamdea]

I use a squeezebox for streaming and am constantly wondering if an external DAC would improve it further. What are people's thoughts on this based upon this review?

I have used a touch for years using external dacs and have recently reverted to the touches analog output. Sounds pretty good to me.
Since the room and other equipment (especially speakers) are not very familiar I'm trying to sort them out before worrying about a dac. I'm not sure whether I will ever spring for a pricey dac again (its going to have to look lovely). Mind you since I am currently using a low powered nas to run LMS, I haven't got the grunt for DRC as an LMS plugin, so I might be tempted by a dspeaker antimode. hmmm

 

[davidsrsb]

Toms Hardware get their revenue from page hits and are not slaves of cable and other exotica advertisers. This might be significant

 

[darrenyeats]

Adam,
Hi-Fi Choice auditioned the Touch blind against some reference DACs and they liked it a lot! I reached the conclusions in post #34 before reading their review, there are some similarities in our conclusions.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/logitech-squeezebox-touch--pound;240/9304

 

[adamdea]

Adam,
Hi-Fi Choice auditioned the Touch blind against some of reference DACs and they liked it a lot! I reached the conclusions in post #34 before reading their review, there are some similarities in our conclusions.

http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/news/article/logitech-squeezebox-touch--pound;240/9304

Thanks Darren
I'd be interested to see what they said in comparison with the other dacs after the blind test.

My own touch was somewhat modded by fidelity audio when i was having a moment of Pacale's wager. I have no idea whether the mods (esp the changed clocks) make it significantly different from stock.

 

[darrenyeats]

Pascal's wager eh! - very good.

 

[adamdea]

Pascal's wager eh! - very good.

I seem to remember that at one point it was all the rage to bypass a capacitor in the output stage when using the analog outs. Not sure whether they did that on mine.