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The Rise of the Far Right

Tony L said:
Nice to see musician Tanita Tikaram calling out BBC/Tory gaslighting.
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The BBC is reporting the fact which is that the Tory Chief Whip has withdrawn the whip from Lee Anderson for refusing to apologise for the comments he made.

What should be highlighted, though, is that it is his refusal to apologise (ie do what he has been directed by the whip / PM) rather than making the original statement that has got him 'suspended'.
 
laughingboy said:
The economic problems of the late 1960s and early 1970s were survivable - not much different from the usual 'business cycle'. The really difficult problem was the oil crisis of 1973-4. Our economies are underpinned by energy prices. When these rise, the cost of everything rises and you get low growth and high inflation (like 2022-23). That's the mid 70s in a nutshell.

It wasn't the failure of social democracy. It was an energy shock.
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That certainly didn't help (the energy crisis). But I also remember, in the UK, Italy, France, that vast industries that were losing money because they were no longer competitive, since Europe no longer had a god-given dominance of industrial production, instead of being made more efficient were Nationalised, at vast expense, to save jobs, and usually became even less efficient. Remember the UK's car and motorcycle industry? In Italy the State acquired vast holding companies to keep alive bankrupt manufacturers and service industries. For decades Alitalia was massively supported by the taxpayer, and it still has not ended. State-owned Alfa Romeo built a factory outside Naples to "create jobs," one result being the AlfaSud that was rusty in the showrooms, another that it had some of the highest absentee rates in the country.
These were culpable errors by (socialdemocratic) politicians who wanted to keep the voters happy and voting for them. It was not intelligent investment of State money to stimulate the economy, but a process of patching things up. Also, the trades unions had become very powerful and resisted any radical reforms.
 
Seeker_UK said:
The BBC is reporting the fact which is that the Tory Chief Whip has withdrawn the whip from Lee Anderson for refusing to apologise for the comments he made.

What should be highlighted, though, is that it is his refusal to apologise (ie do what he has been directed by the whip / PM) rather than making the original statement that has got him 'suspended'.
Click to expand...
True. That would accurately reflect the Tory position. Also the BBC and all journalists should be trying to join the dots on this. Anderson's remarks, his failure to apologise, and the Tory party's refusal to condemn the comments are part of a wider political push to paint all Muslims as extremist. Just as it would be wrong to condemn all Germans as Nazi, it is a profoundly bigoted view, and it has moved from the fringe actors to mainstream political parties.

In the early 2000s, Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP was saying, 'there's no such thing as moderate Islam'(Belfast Telegraph).

In 2012, in the Netherlands, Geert Wilders was saying 'there's no such thing as moderate Islam' (Newsweek).

By 2014, Gerard Batten of UKIP, was saying it (Huffington Post)

By 2018 Batten was leader of UKIP, and in 2019 his successor, Richard Braine, was saying it (The Times).

And now in 2024, the seeded narrative - that all Muslims are extremists - has gone properly mainstream, allowing serving members of the government to assert that sympathy with residents of Gaza represents Islamism or anti-semitism:
  • Andrew Percy has claimed in parliament that he felt safer in warring Israel than in the UK
  • Suella Braverman has miscast overwhelmingly peaceful campaigners for a ceasefire in Gaza as militant, saying "the truth is that the Islamists, the extremists and the antisemites are in charge now".
  • Robert Jenrick, in the same vein, has claimed that 'we have allowed our streets to be dominated by Islamist extremists'
  • Liz Truss has imagined a 'jihadist' candidate for the Rochdale by-election and
  • Lee Anderson unleashed an evidence-free claim that Sadiq Khan was 'the control' of Islamists.
All nuance has gone from our political discourse. It is a disgrace.
 
PaulMB said:
That certainly didn't help (the energy crisis). But I also remember, in the UK, Italy, France, that vast industries that were losing money because they were no longer competitive, since Europe no longer had a god-given dominance of industrial production, instead of being made more efficient were Nationalised, at vast expense, to save jobs, and usually became even less efficient. Remember the UK's car and motorcycle industry? In Italy the State acquired vast holding companies to keep alive bankrupt manufacturers and service industries. For decades Alitalia was massively supported by the taxpayer, and it still has not ended. State-owned Alfa Romeo built a factory outside Naples to "create jobs," one result being the AlfaSud that was rusty in the showrooms, another that it had some of the highest absentee rates in the country.
These were culpable errors by (socialdemocratic) politicians who wanted to keep the voters happy and voting for them. It was not intelligent investment of State money to stimulate the economy, but a process of patching things up. Also, the trades unions had become very powerful and resisted any radical reforms.
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Yes, there were errors. The world had changed - the German and Japanese economies had recovered from the war to be manufacturing powerhouses - and businesses struggled with the volatile conditions. But none of this amounts to a failure of 'social democracy'. And besides, there is a one-sidedness to the characterisation of state support as always being a bad idea.

In the Venture Capital world, private enterprise, they make 10 bets expecting one to come off. In terms of monetary return on investment, these investment masterminds are wrong 90% of the time. Yet we criticise our governments when any investment fails.

We see in South Korea and we see in Taiwan's TMSC that great success can result. I suspect that we have all been fed a narrative by the neoliberals: remember Reagan's 'the most terrifying words in the English language are, "I'm from the government and I'm here to help"'.
 
There was no 'failure of social democracy'. Vested interests, ie the entrenched wealthy and powerful who do in fact control most if not all the levers of power despite the nonsense spouted by useful idiots like Liz Truss, decided that little people were getting far too big a piece of the cake, resulting in what many like to call neo-liberalism but is really more like neo-feudalism. If you peek under the bonnet of the contemporary far right you will very quickly see that it is not a bottom up or grass roots phenomenon but a top down one funded and propagated by individual billionaire families and corporations like the Murdoch empire. And elections in western democracies may be mostly free, but they are rarely fair.
 
I think it’s fair enough to say that the British left made some very big mistakes after the war - including a half-assed approach to nationalisation that left most of the bosses and hierarchy in place - which sharpened the basic tensions of social democracy. Also fair to say that the right did a much better job of exploiting the consequent crises than the left. The right understood the political mood, were well organised, had a plan, and stuck to it, the left not so much (obviously harder for the left because they have to fight everyone).

Thatcherism hasn’t failed, it’s been a huge success *for Thatcherites*. A disaster for the country as a whole obviously but the wealthy became much more wealthy and much better insulated from democracy, which was the whole point.

From that perspective Thatcherism is actually more successful than ever: the last few years have made it pretty clear that it doesn’t matter how much damage it does or how unpopular it is, there is no getting rid of it, it’s too fully embedded in a few key, unaccountable institutions: the Treasury, the media and the Labour Party. They have effectively put a firewall between the wealthy and the electorate. There seems to be no way through it.
 
laughingboy said:
True. That would accurately reflect the Tory position. Also the BBC and all journalists should be trying to join the dots on this. Anderson's remarks, his failure to apologise, and the Tory party's refusal to condemn the comments are part of a wider political push to paint all Muslims as extremist. Just as it would be wrong to condemn all Germans as Nazi, it is a profoundly bigoted view, and it has moved from the fringe actors to mainstream political parties.

In the early 2000s, Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP was saying, 'there's no such thing as moderate Islam'(Belfast Telegraph).

In 2012, in the Netherlands, Geert Wilders was saying 'there's no such thing as moderate Islam' (Newsweek).

By 2014, Gerard Batten of UKIP, was saying it (Huffington Post)

By 2018 Batten was leader of UKIP, and in 2019 his successor, Richard Braine, was saying it (The Times).

And now in 2024, the seeded narrative - that all Muslims are extremists - has gone properly mainstream, allowing serving members of the government to assert that sympathy with residents of Gaza represents Islamism or anti-semitism:
  • Andrew Percy has claimed in parliament that he felt safer in warring Israel than in the UK
  • Suella Braverman has miscast overwhelmingly peaceful campaigners for a ceasefire in Gaza as militant, saying "the truth is that the Islamists, the extremists and the antisemites are in charge now".
  • Robert Jenrick, in the same vein, has claimed that 'we have allowed our streets to be dominated by Islamist extremists'
  • Liz Truss has imagined a 'jihadist' candidate for the Rochdale by-election and
  • Lee Anderson unleashed an evidence-free claim that Sadiq Khan was 'the control' of Islamists.
All nuance has gone from our political discourse. It is a disgrace.
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PFM’s own tonearm innovator there. Pretty grim.
 
Tony L said:
I’d argue it was the electoral system. The political right is only ever a minority view, yet has defined and gerrymandered a system to return power to that minority most of the time. The ’non-right’ is a far broader range of views and interests and our current system throws all these votes away without representation. As such in both the UK the electorate is mostly presented with options that do not represent them. For much of the 20th century this produced a relatively stable if exploitative structure masquerading as democracy. Right now it looks set to return fascism.

This is systemic failure. A failure that has come from an establishment so deliberately removing so many voices from representation and therefore restricting choice. We need political reform. A functional democracy. Desperately. The only alternative at this point looks like a dark dystopian future of fighting fascists on the street with fire, bricks, baseball bats and bottles, or in the USA with guns and another civil war.
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Removal of representation took the form of killing leaders here. Literal killing of John Kennedy and Malcom X and Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy and Fred Hampton. The attempt to substitute a second-rater, George McGovern, for Robert Kennedy, ended in disaster. The liberal wing of society pretty much couldn't get traction after that. The man elected in the last good opportunity, the Watergate reaction, wasn't up to the challenge. The removal of leadership talent was decisive.
 
I have a feeling we did all that centuries ago and the right-wing establishment has just presented a thin illusion of democracy ever since. The only blip was just after WWII with Attlee’s Labour, maybe Wilson’s first term. Nothing else since, and with both main parties now so intent on defending a hopelessly gerrymandered electoral system that retains the elite status quo there can’t be short of violent revolution. The extent gaslighting has worked over the past fourteen years fills me with dread. We are literally sleepwalking into fascism.
 
Seeker_UK said:
The BBC is reporting the fact which is that the Tory Chief Whip has withdrawn the whip from Lee Anderson for refusing to apologise for the comments he made.

What should be highlighted, though, is that it is his refusal to apologise (ie do what he has been directed by the whip / PM) rather than making the original statement that has got him 'suspended'.
Click to expand...
I don’t wish ill on anyone but I’m very close to making an exception for Lee Anderson. A horrible scrote on every level, how many other Tories share his views? Quite a few I reckon.

This current shower can’t even do dirty politics properly, very difficult to make capital out of the Muslim vote now.
 
Woodface said:
This current shower can’t even do dirty politics properly, very difficult to make capital out of the Muslim vote now.
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Labour have taken a dump on Muslim communities too, so they largely have nowhere to go now. Even before the shambles in Rochdale Starmer has been purging anyone who looks a bit Asian or is to the left of Enoch Powell from Labour selection lists. The Al Jazeera Labour List series of documentaries (YouTube) is essential viewing IMO. It may not be the vile National Front/EDL thuggery of Lee Anderson, but it is no less cynical than the decision process that placed ignorant racist scum like that in the Tory Party.

PS I recommend everyone watch this series of AJ documentaries, they are superbly done, have passed endless scrutiny and fact-checking, and stand as a testament to how rotten UK politics has become. As ever I have no dog in any race. I am not and never have been a Labour member, but as someone who believes firmly in democracy, scrutiny and accountability when an establishment party behaves this way we all need to see it. It is not just the Tories who are rotten to the core.
 
Tony L said:
Labour have taken a dump on Muslim communities too, so they largely have nowhere to go now. Even before the shambles in Rochdale Starmer has been purging anyone who looks a bit Asian or is to the left of Enoch Powell from Labour selection lists. The Al Jazeera Labour List series of documentaries (YouTube) is essential viewing IMO. It may not be the vile National Front/EDL thuggery of Lee Anderson, but it is no less cynical than the decision process that placed ignorant racist scum like that in the Tory Party.

PS I recommend everyone watch this series of AJ documentaries, they are superbly done, have passed endless scrutiny and fact-checking, and stand as a testament to how rotten UK politics has become. As ever I have no dog in any race. I am not and never have been a Labour member, but as someone who believes firmly in democracy, scrutiny and accountability when an establishment party behaves this way we all need to see it. It is not just the Tories who are rotten to the core.
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I don’t really understand your point. Labour pretty much had to deselect their candidate for Rochdale, they were slow to do so but this had nothing to do with the colour of his skin. Labour are at least trying to re-engage with Muslim groups, the Tories have no interest in this.

Obviously without your beloved Libs we wouldn’t be in this mess. Even worse than the Tories.
 
Woodface said:
Obviously without your beloved Libs we wouldn’t be in this mess. Even worse than the Tories.
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I don’t agree, they believe in democracy, electoral reform and are very firmly pro-human-rights. They certainly stand against the authoritarianism of the two establishment parties and aren’t stained with the gammon nationalism that blights both. Find me a more articulate speaker on the current Israel/Palestine situation in mainstream politics than Layla Moran?!
 
Tony L said:
I don’t agree, they believe in democracy, electoral reform and are very firmly pro-human-rights. They certainly stand against the authoritarianism of the two establishment parties and aren’t stained with the gammon nationalism that blights both. Find me a more articulate speaker on the current Israel/Palestine situation in mainstream politics than Layla Moran?!
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They will do anything for a sniff of power. Wise words mean nothing in this context. Ed Davey is their leader, Nick Clegg was quick to show his true colours post politics.

I’m sure if Labour offered them the choice they would happily toe the line for them also.
 
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laughingboy said:
True. That would accurately reflect the Tory position. Also the BBC and all journalists should be trying to join the dots on this. Anderson's remarks, his failure to apologise, and the Tory party's refusal to condemn the comments are part of a wider political push to paint all Muslims as extremist. Just as it would be wrong to condemn all Germans as Nazi, it is a profoundly bigoted view, and it has moved from the fringe actors to mainstream political parties.

In the early 2000s, Nick Griffin, the leader of the BNP was saying, 'there's no such thing as moderate Islam'(Belfast Telegraph).

In 2012, in the Netherlands, Geert Wilders was saying 'there's no such thing as moderate Islam' (Newsweek).

By 2014, Gerard Batten of UKIP, was saying it (Huffington Post)

By 2018 Batten was leader of UKIP, and in 2019 his successor, Richard Braine, was saying it (The Times).

And now in 2024, the seeded narrative - that all Muslims are extremists - has gone properly mainstream, allowing serving members of the government to assert that sympathy with residents of Gaza represents Islamism or anti-semitism:
  • Andrew Percy has claimed in parliament that he felt safer in warring Israel than in the UK
  • Suella Braverman has miscast overwhelmingly peaceful campaigners for a ceasefire in Gaza as militant, saying "the truth is that the Islamists, the extremists and the antisemites are in charge now".
  • Robert Jenrick, in the same vein, has claimed that 'we have allowed our streets to be dominated by Islamist extremists'
  • Liz Truss has imagined a 'jihadist' candidate for the Rochdale by-election and
  • Lee Anderson unleashed an evidence-free claim that Sadiq Khan was 'the control' of Islamists.
All nuance has gone from our political discourse. It is a disgrace.
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Nuance, where politicians are concerned, usually means trying to disguise lies so it is refreshing that such people as those above are quite explicit about what they believe.

Less nuance, more honesty, is to encouraged.
 
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