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The Premiership of Mary Elizabeth Truss.Sept 2022 - Oct 2022

Perhaps - but I think the most important thing is that we need a system that limits the power of individual bad actors. A single psychopath (Trump, Murdoch, BJ) can wreak havoc in our present system, but equally psychopaths have wreaked havoc in many prior political systems. Way beyond how we control the supply of money, and tax policy we need to be thinking about how we limit individual power within government and within industry.
Absolutely, but ultimately, in order to achieve that end, we need to stop voting for the bad actors and their bad ideology. And in order to do that, we need to recognise the ideology that dictates the bad outcomes . While we vote for the ideology that cuts to public services are necessary to off set government spending, we will continue to be dominated by these bad actors
 
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But I don't think anyone suggests that as a market reaction is obviously just that, a real time reaction. It might turn out that the market has missed some subtleties or there may be some new, or previously misunderstood effects here but broadly speaking this budget looks like it will be bad for the UK economy and the markets are just reflecting that. I.e. the markets are not saying the budget is definitely wrong, or that it is completely wrong only that on balance and in the aggregate it is very likely wrong in significant part and the risk of bad things happening has increased.

Also don't forget most of this was already priced in as it has been expected for some time. So a better question is, I think, what are they reacting to? I think the answer is probably the unexpected scale of the tax cuts and the scrapping of the 45% band. I.e. the market is not saying this is definitely bad, but rather that the bits we already expected to be bad were done on a significantly larger scale than we had been expecting. To paraphrase a guitar term "Louder is more bad" :)

Although of course the market reaction is decisive in that it has actually just happened and there are real world effects that materially affect our nation's wealth.

What they're racting to is the amount of borrowing. The ball is now in Kwertung's court to explain how he plans to reduce debt:GDP ratio.
 
What they're racting to is the amount of borrowing. The ball is now in Kwertung's court to explain how he plans to reduce debt:GDP ratio.
Reducing the debt mean reducing public spending, which is where our problems have started. There is some merit in linking spending to productivity but GDP is not the best measure of productivity. Better to limit spending to need and available resources
 
But I don't think anyone suggests that as a market reaction is obviously just that, a real time reaction. It might turn out that the market has missed some subtleties or there may be some new, or previously misunderstood effects here but broadly speaking this budget looks like it will be bad for the UK economy and the markets are just reflecting that. I.e. the markets are not saying the budget is definitely wrong, or that it is completely wrong only that on balance and in the aggregate it is very likely wrong in significant part and the risk of bad things happening has increased.

Also don't forget most of this was already priced in as it has been expected for some time. So a better question is, I think, what are they reacting to? I think the answer is probably the unexpected scale of the tax cuts and the scrapping of the 45% band. I.e. the market is not saying this is definitely bad, but rather that the bits we already expected to be bad were done on a significantly larger scale than we had been expecting. To paraphrase a guitar term "Louder is more bad" :)

Although of course the market reaction is decisive in that it has actually just happened and there are real world effects that materially affect our nation's wealth.
It feels like we're mostly on the same page (I was going to ask you why you thought the markets reacted as they did). Can we agree that:

1. An adverse reaction from the markets is, in itself, a bad thing - as you say, it has a material, negative impact on the economy.

2. That does not necessarily mean that the policy that provoked the adverse reaction is a bad policy (e.g. the hypothetical Green New Deal budget).

3. So, sometimes, politicians should face off against the markets, to achieve ends that they believe to be desirable.

4. But politicians also need to recognise that the financial markets constrain their room for manoeuvre, if confidence is completely lost.

The last point is most interesting to me as it raises the possibility of desirable, and democratically supported, political goals being thwarted by a mechanism that appears to be opaque and undemocratic. There's also the lingering question in my mind of how much any market response is partly driven by speculation (the "casino economy") and how much is grounded in a truly rational assessment of the policies concerned.
 
It feels like we're mostly on the same page (I was going to ask you why you thought the markets reacted as they did). Can we agree that:

1. An adverse reaction from the markets is, in itself, a bad thing - as you say, it has a material, negative impact on the economy.

2. That does not necessarily mean that the policy that provoked the adverse reaction is a bad policy (e.g. the hypothetical Green New Deal budget).

3. So, sometimes, politicians should face off against the markets, to achieve ends that they believe to be desirable.

4. But politicians also need to recognise that the financial markets constrain their room for manoeuvre, if confidence is completely lost.

The last point is most interesting to me as it raises the possibility of desirable, and democratically supported, political goals being thwarted by a mechanism that appears to be opaque and undemocratic. There's also the lingering question in my mind of how much any market response is partly driven by speculation (the "casino economy") and how much is grounded in a truly rational assessment of the policies concerned.
I think your last paragraph is crucial, in that the requirements of the market, even where they are irrational, can not only override policies that are democratically supported (taxing the rich is popular), but can implement policies that are not. PE has been running a series of articles showing how those who benefit from lower tax have funded Trusses leadership campaign and now benefit hugely from economic policy changes that have no democratic mandate.
 
IIUC the markets are behaving exactly the same way as they did in 72 with the "Barber Budget". That "tax cuts for growth" budget is now known to have been pretty bad for the long-term health of the UK economy.

So the market behaviour doesn't mean bad policy per se but, based on previous data, is an indicator that the policy is likely to have bad consequences. Only time will tell, but pretty disastrously if it doesn't pan out as Chancellor, PM, and the 33% of the Parliamentary Party that support them, think (hope?) it will.
 
Feels like there's a danger people start to think of 'The Markets' as some shadowy unelected, undemocratic cabal rather than what it is - just a bunch of people (pension providers for example) buying and selling government bonds, currency etc at the price they think it's worth.
 
I’d like to see some proper legal investigation into billionaire hedge fund manager Crispin Odey, who is a close friend and backer of Jacob Rees Mogg (Byline Times), and is reported to have made an absolute fortune shorting yesterday’s Sterling collapse (Reuters). Odey was also Kwateng’s former employer.

When trying to explain seemingly irrational political decisions it is often interesting to follow the money and the connections…
 
I have a €60K invoice to pay on Monday.
It is now going to cost me circa £4k more than last week.
Is does not take many events such as this to totally wipe out my company.
Bunch of utter pig ignorant idiots in charge of it all.
 
Assuming this is all coming true... https://citywire.com/new-model-advi...arns-markets-losing-confidence-in-uk/a2396062

"In an interview with the Financial Times yesterday, Sunak (pictured) warned that it would be ‘complacent and irresponsible’ to ignore the risk of markets losing confidence in the UK economy. He also claimed that Conservative leadership rival Liz Truss’s so-far unfunded policies, including income tax and VAT cuts, could force up inflation and interest rates and increase UK borrowing costs."

...and it seems to be true with bells on after yesterday, inflation is going to rocket. 20%+ could be on the cards.
 
And there was me feeling a bit smug about my modest pension pot and savings.

I have a feeling I’m screwed. What I have in stock ISAs is evaporating fast. The Tories economic mismanagement and their failed Brexit driving inflation so high will certainly kill it within a few years. I wish I’d stuck everything into something tangible like vintage guitars.
 
Reducing the debt mean reducing public spending, which is where our problems have started. There is some merit in linking spending to productivity but GDP is not the best measure of productivity. Better to limit spending to need and available resources

The question was, what caused the market reaction. My answer suggests that if and when he explains in a convincing way how he plans to reduce the debt/GDP ratio it’ll react in the inverse direction.

What do you think has caused the market reaction?
 
I have a feeling I’m screwed. What I have in stock ISAs is evaporating fast. The Tories economic mismanagement and their failed Brexit driving inflation so high will certainly kill it within a few years. I wish I’d stuck everything into something tangible like vintage guitars.

stay the course, Tony. In 5 years, i am pretty sure your ISAs will be showing healthy gains.
 


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