advertisement


"The more I learn, the less I know..."

G

greg788

pfm Member
I'm sure we've heard this saying. Sadly, it seems many here aren't humble enough to lay down their dogma and accept this saying as meaningful. I certainly have eaten my dogma and words a lot in audio over the years. At least I've learned to think for myself and trust my own ears.

We obviously don't know everything (hell, just about everyone here isn't even a designer or DIY enthusiast so opinions are spurious collections of random data points at best). Even some designers who post here have rather, um, interesting opinions.

Measurements (the forms currently deemed acceptable as arbiters of sonic goodness) don't tell the whole story whatsoever. The last time I looked, my ears in no way, shape or form resembled an oscilliscope or multimeter in function.

I started a thread on single ended triodes and it devolved into a mean, argumentative disaster when measurement nazis got involved to "learn us" on just how stupid we were for liking something they didn't because it doesn't measure well by currently accepted methods.

Look, for all of you "experts" here, do me a favor and go talk to some audio designers. Any designer (speakers, solid state, digital, valve). Then you'll learn something. I have -- a lot. I'm an engineer and a curious sort by nature, especially when I go to spend the kind of money high end audio involves. Are there a lot of weirdo designers out there? Yes, in my opinion. Are there a lot of very smart, humble, down to earth guys designing gear? Indeed. Maybe talk to some real experts before spewing your "expertise" why don't you? Just a thought. One thing I've learned the hard way as an engineer is to never talk out of my ass.

One thing you will find out is that many use measurements you'd never dream of seeing in Stereophile. It's their tricks of the trade and they obviously don't like sharing such knowledge, although they've hinted at various things to me (or even tried to explain some things, but I'm materials, not electrical, by degree).
 
Round and round and round and round it goes.

I think the arguments you present are actually fictitious.
I've seen nobody on this forum 'tell you' what you should buy or what sounds good.

I've seen plenty suggest that measurements and audible results correlate, and that you most certainly cannot trust your ears without taking some basic precautions when comparing what are often small differences. That's just common sense, and in no way is it telling you what you should like or listen to.

The use of the word 'nazi' is hardly conducive to good discussion.



PS: I'm beginning to suspect some organised plot to shit-stir on this forum.
 
'If we have data, let's examine the data. If all we have are opinions, let's go with mine'.

Some US CEO.
 
Joe Hutch said:
'If we have data, let's examine the data. If all we have are opinions, let's go with mine'.

Some US CEO.
Click to expand...

That is actually a very sensible way of proceeding. In the absence of data, then somebody has to make a decision as to which way to proceed. As the buck ultimately stops at the CEO, then unless the CEO hears a better opinion, the decision to go with the CEO's opinion makes complete sense.

In business, as in life generally, it's often necessary to make a decision. Any decision is better than no decision, as even if the decision turns out ultimately to be wrong and needs changing, at least that way, something was being done, and the Company moving on.

Analysis Paralysis, where no decision can ever be taken without all the facts being analysed is, in my opinion, far worse than a CEO calling the shots.

S.
 
To the OP I would say that this is a Hi Fi forum and you are welcome to join in. However as always if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

I like this forum for many reasons and one is the robustness of the discussions and another is that you are meeting up with real experts and designers of many fine Hi Fi products. Also there is a wide catchment of people from all walks of life people such as office cleaners through to top professions such as doctors and all bound together through a love of music and their Hi Fi.

Cheers,

DV
 
Who's upset poor old Greg? I've always found this place very civil if you are polite. Hey maybe that's it Greg, maybe implying things like people who hold a different opinion to you "talk out of their ass" doesn't help?
 
I prefer it. Although I'm from a standard Linn Naim trust your ears background of over 20 years standing. I still use Naim albeit misterc6 modded 110 monos, Exposure, Neat and Epos 14s. I've even got a Mana TT table! So real old school hi fi buff.

I like the balance it brings and have learned loads. I agree it all gets a bit predictable- as in you know as soon as someone poses one of about seven questions exactly what will be said and who will say it. I have noticed a recent trend which is for the counter view to be stated a couple of times then left there, which is probably wise because I notice quite a lot of the 'trust your ears' fanatics don't always listen that well.
 
cooky1257 said:
Is it just me or has the audio room taken a bit of a hit since the numbers wars?
Click to expand...

Cooky,

Numbers wars for some, for others its a like a breath of fresh air to hear some sanity return to this hobby.

This benefits the hobby at the expense of some industry ******* and their pathetic collection of over-priced and useless products and crappy advise.

Your Pal

Louballoo
 
Robert said:
Round and round and round and round it goes.

I think the arguments you present are actually fictitious.
I've seen nobody on this forum 'tell you' what you should buy or what sounds good.

I've seen plenty suggest that measurements and audible results correlate, and that you most certainly cannot trust your ears without taking some basic precautions when comparing what are often small differences. That's just common sense, and in no way is it telling you what you should like or listen to.

The use of the word 'nazi' is hardly conducive to good discussion.



PS: I'm beginning to suspect some organised plot to shit-stir on this forum.
Click to expand...

Robert,
I wouldn't get too personally involved with this stuff. You've patiently explained your own product development with measurements and listening. You make reputable products and you strike me as an honest sort of guy. Let it wash over you...
 
Robert said:
Round and round and round and round it goes.

I think the arguments you present are actually fictitious.
I've seen nobody on this forum 'tell you' what you should buy or what sounds good.

I've seen plenty suggest that measurements and audible results correlate, and that you most certainly cannot trust your ears without taking some basic precautions when comparing what are often small differences. That's just common sense, and in no way is it telling you what you should like or listen to.

The use of the word 'nazi' is hardly conducive to good discussion.



PS: I'm beginning to suspect some organised plot to shit-stir on this forum.
Click to expand...


Yah, there's another argument going on RIGHT NOW on a different thread.

The plot stirrers are those who believe what they do and insist others should likewise. I'm not trying to tell anyone what's right or wrong, OK? You seem rather outspoken too, for that matter. Great, fine, be outspoken. But no one is right or wrong here. It's like arguing which make or model of car or motorcycle is best.
 
Robert said:
Round and round and round and round it goes.
(...)
PS: I'm beginning to suspect some organised plot to shit-stir on this forum.
Click to expand...

Coming from one of the princes of repetition this is pretty funny.
 
louballoo said:
Cooky,

Numbers wars for some, for others its a like a breath of fresh air to hear some sanity return to this hobby.

This benefits the hobby at the expense of some industry ******* and their pathetic collection of over-priced and useless products and crappy advise.

Your Pal

Louballoo
Click to expand...

I partly agree but experience tells me there's more to it than numbers.
My speakers use pro drivers, I have a pro xover and pro amps using Klotz balanced cables and Belden av speaker leads off ebay- nothing exotic..
Funny thing is I use a £12 Van damme digi cable in preference to a £70 NVA sound pipe-they don't sound 'the same' -the law says they should, one is definitely better than the other and **** knows why;-)This to me is part of the hobby.
 
Darth Vader said:
To the OP I would say that this is a Hi Fi forum and you are welcome to join in. However as always if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.

I like this forum for many reasons and one is the robustness of the discussions and another is that you are meeting up with real experts and designers of many fine Hi Fi products. Also there is a wide catchment of people from all walks of life people such as office cleaners through to top professions such as doctors and all bound together through a love of music and their Hi Fi.

Cheers,

DV
Click to expand...

I have to agree with DV's analysis. I find this whole entity very useful. Almost everytime I log on the site I leave with a nugget of information. Mostly freely given with good intent. All in the name of appreciation of music and love of Hi Fi.
I do enjoy the debates though & the entrenched attitudes that sometimes prevail.
We do this for fun so lets not get too upset about some things over which we probably have no control.
 
I try hard to stay away from these kinds of discussions but the torrent of continuous circular argument on this forum leads me to speak up just this once.

I ask a simple question.. What ever happened to manners? It's surely an internet phenomenon that leads people to say things that they otherwise wouldn't dream of saying to a stranger (except maybe when drunk).

It's all well and good having facts on your side, but that doesn't mean it's right to use every opportunity possible to try and "educate the masses". The amount of threads that have been subverted down this path is frankly getting quite ridiculous.. for what ? all in the name of education? Free speech? got my vote... but when you know it's going to cause friction, (and I'm sure that this is not something most people are ignorant of when making their statements at this point given the history here), what exactly is the point? except if causing friction is really what you're trying to achieve... that or just making the point of being right?

It's all incredibly tiresome truth be told. :rolleyes:
 
GTM said:
I try hard to stay away from these kinds of discussions but the torrent of continuous circular argument on this forum leads me to speak up just this once.

I ask a simple question.. What ever happened to manners? It's surely an internet phenomenon that leads people to say things that they otherwise wouldn't dream of saying to a stranger (except maybe when drunk).
Click to expand...

Well, yes, but the internet's always been like that. Even back in the days of Usenet you had people offering each other out on the burning questions of whether cables made a difference, whaether subjective opinions are worth more than measurements; in fact the same subjects that still exercise PFMers to this day. One bloke wanted to fly over here from the USA to punch out the lights of someone who dared to question some tenet or other of his audio faith.

Personally, I am unfailingly polite always, and am happy to agree to differ when someone's opinion differs from mine, even on the rare occasions when I know (as opposed to suspecting) I'm right. But then, I was brought up that way.
 
GTM said:
I try hard to stay away from these kinds of discussions but the torrent of continuous circular argument on this forum leads me to speak up just this once.

I ask a simple question.. What ever happened to manners? It's surely an internet phenomenon that leads people to say things that they otherwise wouldn't dream of saying to a stranger (except maybe when drunk).

It's all well and good having facts on your side, but that doesn't mean it's right to use every opportunity possible to try and "educate the masses". The amount of threads that have been subverted down this path is frankly getting quite ridiculous.. for what ? all in the name of education? Free speech? got my vote... but when you know it's going to cause friction, (and I'm sure that this is not something most people are ignorant of when making their statements at this point given the history here), what exactly is the point? except if causing friction is really what you're trying to achieve... that or just making the point of being right?

It's all incredibly tiresome truth be told. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

If people didn't engage the posters you don't like in arguments they would die for lack of oxygen, or turn on each other. It takes two (or more) to create a circular argument.

Nic P
 
It reminds me of one of the funniest cartoons I've seen
duty_calls.png


We all seem to have the tendency to act as the internet priests when it comes to audio - trying to keep the flock from straying. Mostly this is all very tame but there is always some high priests or fanatics that get carried away.

Anyway, I am interested in measurements but only as a means to establish if my changes have made a difference in a specific area, such as noise on the PS, etc. I don't know of any measurements that can say what sounds good, certainly not single tone measurements of frequency, for instance.

So as to take this thread out of the abstract, I suggest that people could post their examples of how their audio expectations were overturned by reality?

Just to kick off, with a controversial one, digital audio cables. Two things that intrigue me & will prove to anybody that there's more to digital audio than 1s & 0s
- RF attenuator on a SPDIF cable
- USB connectors instead of USB cable or very short (<6") USB cable

The RF attenuators will improve almost all SPDIF signals
The USB connectors or short USB cable seems to work best with USB audio device that don't use USB power!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.


advertisement


Back
Top