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The modded poweramp project for Xmas- OR ‘dooo-in’ it right for my little Redbox’.

Thanks for the kind words Mr Wayne sir.

You are probably witnessing the build up to one of my larger public humiliations when all the fancy words and concepts go, 'poof' in a ball of smoke and flame. Or nothing happens at all. Or worst of all, 'dissapoints'. Touch wood, and no tempting fate.
 
A couple of features I've tried to pay attention to on the amp board:
1) feedback path. So I've tried to make this as short as possible, dictated by the physical length of the phase correction network R23/C10. Input taken from the star node formed at the base of the zobel inductor L1.
2) star grounding at the input ground. The inclusion of CCS biasing string decoupling capacitors c101 and c100 which return to there could potentially add noise at that point. I don't know what the real world effect might be. probably make no difference either way.
3)variety of footprint options for feedback caps- C6,C5 or C4. Still need to add a couple of pitch variations for the hell of it there too.
4) star nodes at serveral points e.g Q6, Q9, Q4.
5) avoid crossing tracks wherever possible. If tracks cross, then at right angles for minimum... inductive or capacitative coupling? Just spotted one I fluffed.
6) Try to keep high current tracks as large as possible.
7) note the link vias required to utilise Q12. Decided that a bottom board track would be a very high current path cutting across the driver to output transistor track, so best to link using some big copper away from that track. Also space considerations.
8)R100 forced under the board due to space constraints. I actually think that's going to give trouble from reg board layouts so far and it will need to move, sigh.
9) I also realised a couple of days ago I have 14 regs not 13 on the reg board. Christ, like suddenly realising you have 6 kids not 5. Am mulling over a use of the extra one on the VAS CCS biasing strings. Either driving the cascode transistor directly. Or as a seperate return for it- which should theoretically be worse but I have a suspicion it might, in practice, be better sounding?
A couple of tweaks still to make.

Ok for now.
 
Ok, its late but after a vicious weekend at the laptop with the clock ticking, I think I have the regulator boards sorted now. Thought I'd just put a couple of snaps up before hitting the horizontal as am rather pleased with results. Everything seems to check out and everything fits that I hoped for. Lots of too-ing and fro-ing moving parts a few mils here and there and moving tracks but can't see any major flaws now.

This is the overall layout:
14a regulator board layout.jpg


A couple of bits of routing include the dual star earth- for both +ve and -ve halves of each board. Easy to link, but for more sophisticated power supplies, the ability to run seperate ground wiress to system ground. This is normally a good thing:
14b regulator board grounds.jpg


Similarly star supply nodes for the gyrator output regulators. this one for the gyrator filters. Its hard to see as the routing is pretty compact for a non machine assembled board, but the shunt preregulators have kelvin sense lines going to the both the star ground and the filter star supply node. So the preregulators should maintain a constant voltage between those points. Effectively, even though they're physically not, to all intents and purposes it puts the preregs slap bang over star ground and the output at a starpoint feeding the gryrators- the optimum position.

14c filter star supply.jpg


I'm going to try to tidy everthing up and, baring any last minute problems, send the files off early this week for board fabrication. That'll give a few days to sort out a BOM and put in part orders.

cheers
Ced
 
Jumping around a bit, back to...

Parts
Ok the idea is to use top quality parts where possible, but I also want to allow for a bit of parts experimentation if options present themselves. So, looking at the amp boards first.

The Amp boards:

Looking back at this layout,
13 Redbox amp pcb V6.4.jpg


Ouput transistors.
You can see Q10, Q14, Q11 and Q12 allow options on the layout for TO3 and TO-264 devices. I've not played around madly with output devices in the past. Not sure I'm that inclined to much. Now orientation and pitch of the TO3 footprints is as per Naim boards so there are no compatibility issues slotting straight into my Nap140 (or any other olive naim amp by extension). I think I will use the NA001 parts from my Nap140 initially. However, my current 'big amp' uses the TO264 footprint MJL3281s that Neil mcbride recommended many years ago. They are nice and speedy parts with ft of 30Mhz though a lower-than-some SOA capability. I've also been sitting on a dozen On Semi MJ15003s for a couple of years which Les Worstenhold has recommended in the past.

Basically the immediate options are
NA001 ;TO3 Naim standard part (house badged)
MJ15003 ;TO3 (Avondale recommended- cheap)
BUV20 ;TO3(Avondale recommended- expensive, discontinued, high current capability)
MJL3281 ;TO264 (Neil McBride recommended)

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MJ15003-D.PDF
http://www.semelab.com/pdf/bipolar/BUV20.pdf
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MJL3281A-D.PDF

I think Les Worstenholm described the sound of the NA001s as an allrounder, MJ15003s as lithe and articulate and the BUV20s as 'power and glory'.

The parts I am most interested in trying some time however, are the BUV 20s which are pretty high current and the Semelab BUR50 (350W, 70A, 125V, hfe min 15) or BUR52 (350W, 60A, 250V, hfe min 20) which as well as being high current items have a very nippy ft of 16mhz.
I personally believe that the BUR50s are the rebadged items that Naim use for the Nap500 though can't be sure- Browsing the Semelab power transistor stable, picking up some specifications that Naim have dropped over the years eg Vce ratings, Max Ic, would indicate so anyway.
Also shockingly expensive at £20-£30 a pop if you can find them but that is really something for another day.

http://www.semelab.com/pdf/bipolar/shortform/SF_BUR50.pdf


How differences pan out sound wise in the grand scheme of things? I don't know, not done the AB comparisons yet. I don't expect there to be that much between them sonically in truth (probably more a certain 'polish' or 'mood' to the sound than significant leaps in quality) and more a 'tuning' thing.
The technical theory however is that faster transistors (higher ft generally) will less likely cause closed loop phase shifts and lead to more overall amp stability. However, faster parts are more likely to oscillate, so it’s a balancing act. Check out the datasheets if you're interested. More critically, the power rating, SOA curves and hfe determine how the amp functions and what sort of difficult speakers it can drive and what sort of currents it can deliver without melting/going volcanic (along with other factors such as heatsinks etc). More the nuts and bolts stuff.

driver transistors
I'm going to use MJE15032/3. These are pretty ubiquitous in a lot of amp designs. I'm not inclined to care to experiment. They have good gain, linearity, voltage rating. No problems. A bit of heatsinking is all that’s required.

http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/MJE15032-D.PDF

Small signal transistors
Inputs BC546c (same as the preamp BC550s but higher voltage rating).
VAS and CCS cascodes: 2sc2705/2sa1145 There are good reasons for using these (low Cob, medium ft- critical parameters for a good VAS transistor or cascode device. also good to 150V) and they do sound better in practice.
CCS BC546c. Not particularly critical IMO. Could play with this. Reason being this part is well protected by the cascoding transistor.
VBE mulitiplier (Q6): Hmm, probably a ztx part or similar. Reasonably high hfe is desirable. Not really bothered. The decoupling cap (C9)will be most important in maintaining a constant voltage across the circuit IMO and keeping high frequency noise at bay. I will go for a film cap in the 10-47uf range. Randy Sloane says 10uf upwards is good for this element of a circuit which is good enough for me. Definitely a 47uf Evox MMK or similar works wonderfully though I will dabble in an upgrade- I've certainly planned on it :).

Capacitors
Over time my view on caps has settled somewhat and I now have 2 golden coloured rules-of-thumb: a)they must be film if at all humanly possible b)must be non inductive construction if at all possible.
Heirachy of film caps is roughly Teflon (best), polystyrene, polypropylene, PPS and polyester.
Metail foil is better than metallised, but I don't worry too much about that these days. The differences are often a matter of taste in the grand scheme of things. Usually. Generally. As a rule, sort of. The MAIN thing, which does matter, is that they aren't electrolytics (inc tants).

My other thing is I try not to touch anything apart from Evox or Wima box capacitors if possible. They are reasonable value and most importantly great sounding in general; and my guess is the reason being they are true non-inductive designs and inductance can play havoc with sound. Basically, although they are wound film foil construction, each butt of the wound roll is effectively 'smothered in solder' (actually vacuum metal vapour deposition IIRC) so shorting out any inductance- Current flows across the wound foil not around it- between the electrodes, ergo no inductance (well as much as a short piece of wire only). Have a look at the Wima website some time or this explains it well:

http://www.illinoiscapacitor.com/uploads/papers_application/51D69991C5554E6B95CB9BE30B82B0BB.pdf

A lot of audio boutique caps are actually just plain wound (the electrodes attach to the foils at one point only) so although they may use fancy materials, they have whopping inductances which in my experience leads to often 'weird sounding caps'. Basically inductance is completely the wrong sort parasitic to have in a cap as it 'fights' ac when we generally want caps to respond fast to ac changes; In coupling it will distort a signal voltage through it, and will also make a cap slower in decoupling applications.

Even the Mundorfs and Audyn cap plus use an inductance cancelling winding topology where opposite inductances cancel out. In theory. I tried the Audyn cap plus years ago and they sounded truly bizarre both in coupling and decoupling. Just wrong. Ron who tried some at the same time agreed, so I think the theory and practice don’t quite marry; my opinion based on limited experience only.

In general however, caps are the most important type of part (eg inductors, transistors, resistors etc) to worry about in terms of material construction and quality IMO, but follow the above guides and you can't go far wrong. I won't say it’s a truism as that is a bit dogmatic; I'm sure there are exceptions, but its expensive testing, ceased to hold much interest as an area of experimentation a while back, and its incidental to the focus of this project. I have a pretty good idea of capacitor bang for buck now and the 2 above guides get 95% of any possible sound gains from caps IME.
Its really the difference between film and electrolytics that is critical. Walt Jung and Richard Marsh did some seminal articles on this about 30 years ago and it still seems to be truer with time.

http://www.reliablecapacitors.com/pickcap.htm

Now if you read, Walt does give the polyesters a bit of a kicking. However, they can be useful, even essential sometimes. In signal coupling the sound is actually quite forgiving- not the last word in detail but well balanced. Personally I don’t use em, but they are quite popular with several pink fishers. I use polyesters as lot in decoupling though. Why? Because actually I have had polypropylenes cause low level oscillation several times which, while doesn't initially do much physical harm, sounds terrible. Swapped with a polyester, problem gone. You have to be a bit careful where you use polyprops, so I am. Sometimes it can be like sticking a rocket booster to a mini; you are going to get a mini adventure. And its going to end at the top of a tree on fire. Also sometimes size does play a part- You can get roughly 10x as much capacitance in a polyester as a polyprop of the same size. Also the difference in sound is not that great. Usually. As always there are no rules just optimum solutions.

So for the Redbox amp I'm going for polystyrenes, polypropylenes and polyesters pretty well throughout unless I really can't get away from using an electrolytic. This will be only for space (need v. large uf in v. small space) or market availability (i.e isn't manufactured) reasons, not cost. If its electrolytic, then most likely rubycon ZLs.- top quality, very low impedance with voltage ratings up to the 100V mark. Sorry, the ZAs only go to 35V and forget Oscons which also fry at 25 or 30V i think is the max. Panasonic also do a lovely line in electroytics; FMs i think.
The polystyrenes I'm going to be using also have a non-inductive construction from my inspection though they don't seem to be promoted as such. Can't remember the exact type and manufacturer off the top of my head (maybe the LCR FSCEX???- sort it out at the BOM stage.

www.evoxrifa.com/cap_catalog/generalp/mmk.pdf
www.evoxrifa.com/cap_catalog/pulsecap/phe426.pdf
www.rubycon.co.jp/en/catalog/e_pdfs/aluminum/e_zl.pdf

input coupling- I'm planning on polyprops, probably wima mkp4 or evox phe426s. They're sweet, detailed and well balanced generally in this role and 1uf is absolutely fine. I may eventually swap to polyesters or SMRs to do a bit of tuning to taste so I've allowed varied pitches to fit most Evox and Wima components. Board space is tight so they will have to be metallised not film and foil. One day I may go mad, and try a Teflon Vcap just because I've had one in mind for so long. However its big dollars, lots of space required and I doubt there's much more to be gained. Strictly out of curiosity only. Also Vcaps wouldn't fit in my 140, so this would only be for my big amp and it would be flying leads lash up. In context I've played with polystyrene film/foils (RTXs) on the preamp and they're only a hair better than a decent metallised polyprop in my book so the Vcap is really just an itch that has been around a long while.
Polyprop for the feedback cap too. If you know what to look for, it can be better than a polyester though there are some caveats, both in sound and in practical execution; What I'm planning may simply not work and sound horrible if it doesn't, in which case back to Evox MMKs for the NAP. More shortly.

Power resistors. (e.g R29,R30)
Naim use some ghastly inductive wirewound horrors for this. Rated at 3W I think? Maybe 5 as the wirewounds are quite tolerant of heat. I think they've used various manufacturers in the past, including Meggits.
Im going to use Caddock MP930s- TO220, non-inductive, 50ppm temp co (edit: oops, its 200ppm actually), metal film resistive elements. Very nice if a tad pricey.

www.caddock.com/Online_catalog/Mrktg_Lit/MP9000_Series.pdf

Now the TO220s are good to 2 watts unheatsinked. I have been running my protoype amp boards for a couple of years now with MP930s and no problems- they don't even get warm. If your speakers are current hungry a small heatsink might be in order. However do the maths, for .22R current sharing resistors they can take 10A dc at max power rating. Your amp can't so its not a worry. There's space to fit a small heatsink if worried or using TO264 output transistors.

Otherwise resistors will be the good old Vishay Dale RN60s, 0.25W mil spec rated (actually 0.5W industrial) except around the drivers where I'm shoving in RN65s, 0.5W mil spec (1 W industrial) as the dissipation is a bit larger here.

www.vishay.com/docs/31027/31027.pdf

I did consider going for RN65s all through but its not really warranted and I needed the space. One thing I might do is actually move to PRPs which are the new Vishays and becoming pretty common in high end audio, reason being the Vishays sometimes come in industrial i.e non copper leads, which are not so great sounding. Not always easy to know when your buying. I will also consider some vishay dale PTFs which are 0.1% tolerance, 10ppm temp co parts (yum) or caddock MKVs for the feedback loop (specs not exceptional but very positive sound reviews) which I judge most sensistive position. Depends on availability. Something top quality anyway. Tantalums? I'll think about it. A few select good resistors are worthwhile but when some of Vishays zero tempco top foil offerings can be £50-100/pop you have to draw the line. Boutique resistors are relatively bad value in bang-for-buck stakes as a general rule- difference between super costly and cheap is small sound wise.

The zoble
Polypropylene cap (0.22uf), Caddock MP930 resistor, home made inductor 20 turns of 1.25mm insulated copper on an 8mm diameter dowel IIRC (I have this worked out somewhere but its something like that- comes to 4uH IIRC).

So all parts are in the top 95-98% of what it is possible to buy sound quality wise IMO, but paying only the upper end of the economy price range. Those are figures I like a lot and actually, I'm not sure you can do much better whatever money you spend on parts. The most critical single component is, as ever the feedback cap, and that is covered by the best on the market available IMO. There is a little trick I'm trying to pull off with this which I hope works though; If it doesn't, I'm screwed as far as the Nap140 goes. But if it goes well that alone will make this amp exceptional and why I don't believe a Nap500 will stand a chance soundwise (touch wood, not tempting fate, proof in the eating.) when the regulation and a few other tweaks are thrown into the mix.

OK, regulator boards parts breakdown to come shortly.
 
What's your take on the Sanken 2SC2922 as output transistors ced?

It's fitted in the early NAP 140 which IMO sounds sweeter than the olive NAP 140.

Also Naim still uses them in their current lower power amps.

Only thing is the hard to find thermal film for the odd sized MT-200 package.
 
Personally I'd leave out the Naim original output transistors unless you want that veiled, coloured Naim haze......
I use both 15003 and BUV20 in my amps. The 15003 are faster, cleaner and more responsive than the Naim ones, BUV20s less 'fast' but more ballsy, definitely tune to your system. I've more transistors available if you wish to experiment.

A note of caution, don't by BUV20's off Ebay. I did and they were fakes as confirmed by the manufacturer who replaced them FOC and reported the Ebay seller.

I think used these as the power resistors.
http://uk.farnell.com/tyco-electronics/mpr20hr22j/resistor-20w-to220-0r22/dp/1174220

However I tried one in the signal path (zobel ?) and the sound was very transparent but hard, forward and fatiguing, I feared some oscillation so took them out and used a metal film instead.
 
The Sanken MT200 transistors are the fastest generally available. They are so fast that it can be challenging to get things stable in some cases.

As well as speed, the current gain is good and holds up very well up to about 8 or 10A.

The downside is finding insulators, and that they may not be compatible with layouts for other types, as the package is wider. They also have a surprisingly poor Early voltage; this will give worse PSRR than some of the alternatives, so I would expect them to be fussier about power supply.
 
Hi Cromodora,
that plain reminds me. A general pretty please:
If you (or anyone) still happens to have a chrome bumper nap 140 with the Sankens in, would you be able to pop off the chassis and measure the pitch of those parts on the heatsinks? (ie. how far apart [to at least a mm or even fraction of a mm estimated accuracy] they are apart from center of screw to center of screw between each pair.
If possible I'd like to adjust the pitch of the to-264s to match so it would be possible to test. Would need to know by tomorrow or wednesday though.

Sanken have a range of very nice very very fast output transistors that would also be worth trying at some point. Anyway to answer your question, I had both and the olive Nap trounced the crome bumper one with just a fuller more bouncy and groovy sound. However, they were different machines and i suspect the chrome reservoir caps were shagged so its really impossible to tell without doing a straight swap. Part of the idea behind this little messing around.

Midcm1, you seem to have tried this out. Like it. Your reactions are also similar to Les' which is reassuring. I would certainly love a loan of the BUVs if you're willing at some point. How would you rate the difference in sound compared to other mods i.e on an absolute scale?

Re the Caddocks. You're not the first to have commented on the transparent though lean or hard sound. I've got a lot of warmth and body to the sound via other areas so that character works excellently in my current setup but it does illustrate a problem with any build and choice of parts. How would you class the sound of the Tycos as not tried em?
Ced
 
Ced

Just found my box of power transistors and all I've got spare are 4 x OnSemi MJ802G and 12 x OnSemi MJ21194's.
These are unused, purchased direct from Onsemi. Let me kow if you want to try any. I think I might have some original Naim ones somewhere from a 140 as well.
 
Is it possible to publish the regulator schematics that match your layout?

Thanks

Looking very good !
 
Hi Cromodora,
that plain reminds me. A general pretty please:
If you (or anyone) still happens to have a chrome bumper nap 140 with the Sankens in, would you be able to pop off the chassis and measure the pitch of those parts on the heatsinks? (ie. how far apart [to at least a mm or even fraction of a mm estimated accuracy] they are apart from center of screw to center of screw between each pair.
If possible I'd like to adjust the pitch of the to-264s to match so it would be possible to test. Would need to know by tomorrow or wednesday though.

Sorry ced not at home at the mo.
Its the school hols here and meself and the family's travelling upcountry on the way to an elephant sanctuary.

Meantime will ring a mate to see if he can help.
 
Hi Cromordora,
not to worry. got some photos off the internet and did a couple of scale measurements which came out at about 20mm from the edge of the boards for the mounting holes. I hope that's right and the nice thing about TO264s is they're much more forgiving of a little misalignment. Interestingly though, if it is, that is exactly the pitch for the solder pins of the TO3 devices in an olive chassis so means its a doddle to swap from TO3s to TO264s and still use the same naim heatsinks- I love the elegance of it if pans out that way- was in a rush to check but think. Always hated TO3s as their such a pain in the arse to mount.
MiD, yep will do soon. V busy right now. Thanks for the offer of the output pieces loan, will have to take you up on it. Check out the Masao Noru patent on shunt voltage regulators meanwhile if you're keen. You can find it with a bit of searching- it will give you everything you need if you're inclined and is very informative.
cheers
C
 
well well, look what santa finally delivered today:D:

11a boards 2.jpg


11a boards.jpg


Naturally they arrive the first day back to work!! ZV*&&xx45**!! Ah to be honest was away the whole of the xmas break anyway so wouldn't have had any time to work on it in the end in any case. Hope ya all had a most excellent winter solstice anway.

Took ages to source a decent supplier who could do these for a less than ridiculous price. Board houses can be a bit mule-headed about panels, but seems to be an industry thing to a greater or lesser extent. Try fitting two boards on a panel of size x and they'll try to sling an extra 50% on tooling costs regardless of routing or not. Just doesn't make sense.

Anyway, intial inspection is very positive. The TO3 output transistor fit was an initial worry but fit is tighter than an erotic metaphor.
11b TO3 fit.jpg

11c TO3 fit 2.jpg


Even more pleasing I got the TO264 fit bang on so swapping out is a doddle. The mouting hole of the TO264s fit bang in the pin holes of the Naim heatsinks.
11d TO264 fit.jpg

One annoyance is I've realised that going to TO264s and then back to TO3s will be messy on this board as the M3 screw hole clashes with the TO3 pin holes which are only about 0.8mm diam. Some sort of TO264 heatsink clip or clamp would be the only alterntive, but not sure they exist- gonna have to rack my brains over a future layout trick as it's a bit inelegant as stands.

Also slightly annoyed with the board house as they have managed to miss-etch a couple of tracks and I can't understand why. Its non-critical as its a case of merging seperated ground tracks which I can live with. Pretty sure it was all within design rules so will have to check the gerbers and my files. 5 minutes with a scalpel will sort it out though or leave as is. Also the buggers appear to have used incorrect drill sizes in a few places- probably saving on drill changes. Little niggles.

Anyway the critical caps on the regs all fit beautifully:
11e critical reg caps.jpg


ditto the amp boards:
11f critical amp caps.jpg


Most of the parts have arrived. 1 more order to make which will hopefully get here by the weekend. some bloody obscure parts had to be hunted down.
11g box of parts.jpg


The other big 'mechanical' issue was ensuring the sandwich fitted together. It does:
www.naimmods.com/pix poweramp project/11 boards arrive/11h the sandwich.jpg

11i the sandwich 2.jpg


Top and bottom spacing of the caps is also bang on to within a mm or so. It exactlyfits into the chassis on first try even better than I calculated.
11k NAP140 fit.jpg


11l NAP140 fit 2.jpg


Actually I do lie a little bit. The regulator board heatsinks are about 1.5mm too tall which i knew but was in denial over. Looks like reality trumped my jack regardlessly. I think I can just finess it by going to 4mm sandwich standoffs instead of 5mm, and putting the lower boards onto 20mm ones instead of 18mm. Otherwise it just means filing a tad off the heatsinks. They're Aluminium, so no great issue but again, just a bit inelegant as is.

Also realised I only have 10mm top screws and i need 4 or 5mm max ones as the sandwich standoff internal threads are, well, obvioulsy not very deep. need to add those to the parts purchase.

Finally the through-holes to channel power from the regulator boards to the amp boards all line up perfectly:
11j sandwich connection.jpg


And no I'm not going to do it with resistors. They were just the first bits that came to hand. Special pins and a dollop of solder will do the trick, done in seconds. Again i suspect it could be tweaked for even more elegant fitting, but I could be wrong. It will have to be seen 'in the field' so to speak- a bit of trial and error thing.

well thats about it so far. No doubt other problems, both little and not so little will rear their heads shortly as assembly and testing progresses. Sadly although it felt finished when the files went off, it's really the start of doing the whole damn thing.. all.. over.. again (sneaked in a little The The lyric there), with real parts this time. What will be the first bit not to work I wonder?? :rolleyes: Ah well, I aim to test the amp boards by the end of the coming weekend. Regulators will probably have to wait till the weekend after. So much to do.

cheers
Ced
 
Hi, Ced

Won't the TO264s fit using one TO3 hole and feeding the leads through the TO3 base and emitter holes and connecting the collector using a solder tag and bending the lead back over the transistor? I have done this in the past with simmilar transistors.

Pete
 
Hi Pete,
ah, don't think I was quite clear. Either package will work fine in itself.
Actually I meant that the smaller central pins of the TO3 transistors feed through the heatsink and into the pcb solder pad which is about 0.8mm diam To use the central hole for an M3 screw to fix the mounting hole of the TO264 means drilling a 3mm hole through the pcb. Its fine in itself but it means you can't go back to TO3 parts any more as the solder pad would have been drilled out.- non reversilbe.
The alternative would be to clamp the TO264 so you then don't need to screw it to the heatsink and therefore drill out the pcb. Or think of something else cunning.
 
Hi, Ced

I did understand what you where on about, I was offering and alternate mounting solution that I have used in the past.

Pete
 


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