The Hate Crime and Public Order (Scotland) Act 2021

[Finnegan]

FFS. Blocking her does not ignore the fact that the people she targets also get death threats. Well done for taking a very clear quote from me and choosing to give it a meaning it clearly did not have. What exactly is your problem other than a desire to provoke for the sake of it. You can’t respect that different people have different views and different responses and that may well be informed by their personal experience of and exhaustion with hate crimes? So, it’s okay for Natalie to block her but not me. I’ve let the side down but she hasn’t?

With all due respect you’re exactly the sort of person with a one size fits all solution who should not be part of these discussions. Placed on “Ignore” and I would appreciate it if you would address no further comments to me.

I’m confused by your line of argumentation.

Hate speech does not precede hate crime, but “we know that hate crimes spike when there is hate speech.”

We should block/ ignore, but “Blocking her does not ignore the fact that the people she targets also get death threats.”

You have twice now said that you would make no further comment, but have returned to do so now three times including your latest response. You could simply have abided by your original decision, rather than dictating who may or may not be suitable to contribute to the discussion.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

The really odd thing is that I get the impression that @Mike Hughes and @Finnegan are broadly on the same side of the argument. Differences are more about approach, than anything fundamental. There's a failure to communicate here, which is disappointing.

 

[Muttley2]

Makes more sense.

 

[Finnegan]

I’m not always sure of Pie/ Walker. Yeah sure, he can at times be very funny, but his previous scriptwriter was Andrew Doyle, alumnus of far-right rag Spiked. Walker claims not to work with Doyle anymore, but his exceptionally ill-informed rant here, and attack on identity politics, has the RCP/ Spiked all over it.

 

[paulfromcamden]

I’m not always sure of Pie/ Walker. Yeah sure, he can at times be very funny, but his previous scriptwriter was Andrew Doyle, alumnus of far-right rag Spiked. Walker claims not to work with Doyle anymore, but his exceptionally ill-informed rant here, and attack on identity politics, has the RCP/ Spiked all over it.

He's a reactionary tool. Four years ago he posted his Woke Utopia video moaning how everyone with a 'different' opinion was being cancelled by 'woke' 'liberals' (though strangely the video is still up and he's still churning them out) and in the space of about 10 seconds stated that we shouldn't judge slave traders "by todays standards" and that trans women are men.

Looking forward to his videos on why women don't deserve equal pay and how a dose of National Service would sort out today's youth.

 

[Finnegan]

He's a reactionary tool. Four years ago he posted his Woke Utopia video moaning how everyone with a 'different' opinion was being cancelled by 'woke' 'liberals' (though strangely the video is still up and he's still churning them out) and in the space of about 10 seconds stated that we shouldn't judge slave traders "by todays standards" and that trans women are men.

Looking forward to his videos on why women don't deserve equal pay and how a dose of National Service would sort out today's youth.

Really? I wasn’t aware of that. It certainly fits with the Spiked agenda. Is it perhaps a case of Alf Garnett style satire, where it isn’t really made clear whether he’s serious or not? But, as I say, anyone who has connections with Spiked should be treated with caution.

 

[vince rocker]

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ints-by-neo-nazis-under-new-scottish-hate-law

Police spammed with complaints by neo-Nazis under new Scottish hate crime law

 

[Finnegan]

https://www.theguardian.com/society...ints-by-neo-nazis-under-new-scottish-hate-law

Police spammed with complaints by neo-Nazis under new Scottish hate crime law

 

[TheDecameron]

Independence a more pressing need than ever

“A prominent figure in England’s white nationalist movement is among those urging followers to spam Police Scotlandwith anonymous online reports, the Observer has found”.

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

Independence a more pressing need than ever

“A prominent figure in England’s white nationalist movement is among those urging followers to spam Police Scotlandwith anonymous online reports, the Observer has found”.

Not sure how independence helps with this, however; though I agree with you that if I were in a position to sever links to such types, I’d do it too.

 

[irb]

Many of us recognise her hatred, bigotry and desire to use her extraordinary wealth and power to punch-downwards to one of the most vulnerable and vilified communities on this planet as exactly what it is. ...

I just came across this thread by accident, a month late, when searching for something else entirely. I wish I could ignore the way you've written about JKR, Tony, but I can't. It really bothers me, in fact. The debate around trans rights is not reducible to the simple progressive/regressive binary you suggest, not least because of the way that the issues intersect with women's rights. JKR has spoken out in support of women's organisations trying to resist the loss of hard-won rights.

Audio is a very male-dominated interest - I wonder what percentage of posters here are women? I know there are some, but I suspect the proportion is vanishingly small. So the spectacle of a man who owns a very male-dominated web forum, speaking so harshly about a woman sticking up publicly for women's rights, despite the opprobrium heaped on her head for it, really troubles me. Next time you want to speak up for the vulnerable and vilified, it would be good to remember that discrimination and violence against women have not gone away. When you look at the statistics, they are grotesque. To take just one example, in 2021 the ONS estimated that 2 out of every 3 women between the ages 16 and 34 experienced some form of harassment over the previous year. I'm not even going to mention the statistics on sexual violence and rape. Look them up if you need to.

Some people commenting here have mentioned that they haven't actually read what JKR has been saying. Let me help with that. Here's an excerpt from a recent statement she made on X, which everyone is of course free to agree or disagree with as they wish:

"Gender dysphoria is a real and very painful condition and I feel nothing but sympathy for anyone who suffers from it. I want them to be free to dress and present themselves however they like and I want them to have exactly the same rights as every other citizen regarding housing, employment and personal safety. I do not, however, believe that surgeries and cross-sex hormones literally turn a person into the opposite sex, nor do I believe that each of us has a nebulous 'gender identity' that may or might not match our sexed bodies. I believe the ideology that preaches those tenets has caused, and continues to cause, very real harm to vulnerable people."

 

[Tony L]

Audio is a very male-dominated interest - I wonder what percentage of posters here are women? I know there are some, but I suspect the proportion is vanishingly small. So the spectacle of a man who owns a very male-dominated web forum, speaking so harshly about a woman sticking up publicly for women's rights, despite the opprobrium heaped on her head for it, really troubles me. Next time you want to speak up for the vulnerable and vilified, it would be good to remember that discrimination and violence against women have not gone away. When you look at the statistics, they are grotesque. To take just one example, in 2021 the ONS estimated that 2 out of every 3 women between the ages 16 and 34 experienced some form of harassment over the previous year. I'm not even going to mention the statistics on sexual violence and rape. Look them up if you need to.

I suspect I follow Rowling’s output on social media rather more closely than you (even though I try my best to ignore it!) and have researched the groups she aligns with, plus have seen the impact on those she vilifies. The overwhelming majority of feminists are pro-trans-rights. Last figure I saw was 81% (Washington Post). Feminists are the most pro-trans-rights grouping on the planet, but the terfs have the megaphone at present thanks to some very rich and powerful people pushing that agenda. Those who are aggressively opposed are a minority and commonly aligned with other far-right or fundamentalist views. I would suggest you watch the Contrapoints video upthread as Natalie Wynn can explain this stuff far better than I’d ever be able to.

For clarity I am fully pro-feminist and will fight that corner hard, I just have no time for right-wing terfs or any other bigots. I am a lifelong anti-fascist. That is why I have a side in this argument.

Feminists explain how fights for women's and trans rights are one and the same

Feminists have explained why trans rights should always be treated as a feminist issue and why anti-gender movements hurt feminism.

www.thepinknews.com

When feminism supports trans rights, everybody wins – just like in Iceland | Owl Fisher

In the UK, the movements are often considered in opposition. In reality they are not just compatible, but complementary

www.theguardian.com

How the UK’s only feminist party came out in favour of gender self-ID

After years of internal divisions over the trans rights debate, the Women’s Equality Party has taken a clear position.

www.newstatesman.com

5 Things to Know to Make Your Feminism Trans-Inclusive

In Collaboration With HRC’s Transgender, Ally & Gender-Expansive Staff Resource Group and Women Identified Staff+ Resource Group

www.hrc.org

 

[TheDecameron]

She’s used her money and influence to not only cynically smear a highly vulnerable minority as predators against women but to interfere in democratic politics like various other well heeled zealots. I see her as no different from Paul Marshall or Christopher Chandler. I’d be very happy if she just did one and left Scotland.

 

[kensalriser]

Rowling strikes me as a radicalised and increasingly deranged transphobe. The argument above that seeks to link trans rights to violence against women is as absurd as it is mendacious.

In case my message isn't clear: trans people are not a threat to women.

 

[irb]

I suspect I follow Rowling’s output on social media rather more closely than you (even though I try my best to ignore it!) and have researched the groups she aligns with, plus have seen the impact on those she vilifies. The overwhelming majority of feminists are pro-trans-rights. Last figure I saw was 81% (Washington Post). Feminists are the most pro-trans-rights grouping in the planet, but the terfs have the megaphone at present thanks to some very rich and powerful people pushing that agenda. Those who are aggressively opposed are a minority and commonly aligned with other far-right or fundamentalist views. I would suggest you watch the Contrapoints video upthread as Natalie Wynn can explain this stuff far better than I’d ever be able to.

For clarity I am fully pro-feminist and will fight that corner hard, I just have no time for right-wing terfs or any other bigots. I am a lifelong anti-fascist. That is why I have a side in this argument.

Feminists explain how fights for women's and trans rights are one and the same

Feminists have explained why trans rights should always be treated as a feminist issue and why anti-gender movements hurt feminism.

www.thepinknews.com

When feminism supports trans rights, everybody wins – just like in Iceland | Owl Fisher

In the UK, the movements are often considered in opposition. In reality they are not just compatible, but complementary

www.theguardian.com

How the UK’s only feminist party came out in favour of gender self-ID

After years of internal divisions over the trans rights debate, the Women’s Equality Party has taken a clear position.

www.newstatesman.com

5 Things to Know to Make Your Feminism Trans-Inclusive

In Collaboration With HRC’s Transgender, Ally & Gender-Expansive Staff Resource Group and Women Identified Staff+ Resource Group

www.hrc.org

Thanks Tony, and thanks for the links.

Several of the articles make a point about loosening of gender stereotypes, going back decades, which is something that's cropped up on the thread here too. I'm absolutely in agreement with that. I see that loosening as an incredibly positive thing, linked to the sea-change in attitudes towards sexuality that's taken place in our lifetime. But I struggle with what I read coming from many trans activists, who seem to have a pretty rigid, binary attitude to gender.

Regarding the video, I opened it, but I see it's two hours long. I'll watch it, but it will have to wait until I have more time.

I also have to say I'm not comfortable with the use of acronyms like terfs. Name calling is never good, in my book, whichever side is doing it. I've only once been physically present at a demo on trans rights (I stumbled into it by accident) and I found myself facing someone carrying a sign with "Decapitate terfs" written on it. That appals me. No-one on any side of this or any other debate should be threatening violence.

 

[irb]

... The argument above that seeks to link trans rights to violence against women is as absurd as it is mendacious. ...

Which post are you calling absurd and mendacious? Mine? (Best to be clear when saying stuff like that.)

 

[irb]

... I would suggest you watch the Contrapoints video upthread as Natalie Wynn can explain this stuff far better than I’d ever be able to. ...

Well, spent the evening watching the Natalie Wynn video. Didn't know her stuff before, so thanks, Tony - very impressed.

 

[kensalriser]

Which post are you calling absurd and mendacious? Mine? (Best to be clear when saying stuff like that.)

Well, yeah. You went to some trouble to conflate violence against women with trans people. You might as well be conflating homosexuality with paedophilia. It's the same sort of non-sequitur.

 

[irb]

Well, yeah. You went to some trouble to conflate violence against women with trans people. You might as well be conflating homosexuality with paedophilia. It's the same sort of non-sequitur.

No, I absolutely did not 'conflate violence against women with trans people'. That's a ridiculous reading of my post - maybe even absurd and mendacious?
Read what I wrote again please. I made the point that JKR bases her stance on defending women's rights. And I highlighted the fact that there is a serious issue there because, despite all the hard fought progress over the last century or so, this is still a very sexist and misogynist society. And that's something which has been almost completely absent from this thread, in which various men have been sounding off about a woman.

 

[Tony L]

I made the point that JKR bases her stance on defending women's rights. And I highlighted the fact that there is a serious issue there because, despite all the hard fought progress over the last century or so, this is still a very sexist and misogynist society. And that's something which has been almost completely absent from this thread, in which various men have been sounding off about a woman.

She starts from that perspective, but finds herself at odds with the overwhelming majority of feminists, and aligned with far-right cranks like Kellie Jay Keen, Tufton St ‘think tanks’ such as the fake dark-money funded LGB Alliance, LibsOfTikTok, and a load of misogynistic men like Elon Musk, Ron DeSantis, Vladimir Putin, Graham Linehan, Lee Anderson, the US Evangelical Taliban-right etc.

The more one looks at her position the less credible it appears to my mind. If in doubt I will always look to feminist consensus views (overwhelmingly in favour of trans-rights), human rights and LGBTQ+ rights campaigners and organisations before listening to outliers wishing to attack or marginalise highly vulnerable minorities.