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The British Museum and Not Giving Stuff Back

paulfromcamden

paulfromcamden

Baffled
Amazing story in the Graun today about a collection of Ethiopian religious tablets looted in 1868.

This blew my mind...

The 11 wood and stone tabots ... are considered to be so sacred that even the institution’s own curators and trustees are forbidden from examining them ... they are thought to be held in a sealed room that can only be entered by Ethiopian clergy.

www.theguardian.com

British Museum investigated over Ethiopian artefacts hidden from view for 150 years

Watchdog examining claims key details have not been disclosed about altar tablets that museum is facing calls to return
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Worth reading the background to the Battle of Maqdala here to understand how these came into the possession of the British Musuem:

www.returningheritage.com

Ethiopian Tabot returned by Edinburgh Church

Because Reverend John McLuckie had visited Ethiopia as a student, he was able to identify and grasp the true significance of a wooden plaque he discovered in 2001 in a Scottish Episcopal church in Edinburgh.
www.returningheritage.com www.returningheritage.com
 
On the whole, and very much in line with Great Britain's fallen status in the world, I would say that the only museum exhibits that should not be returned to their lands of origin are those that originate in GB.

Of course the Viking Exhibits in York should stay, because that is where the Vikings left them, but anything brought to Britain from foreign lands - and I mean everything really - should be given back. Michealangelo should be repatriated, Leonardo, Rafeal, The Elgin Marbles, everything.

We can keep the artworks made here and that should be enough.

Then people might ponder whether Great Britain gave anything at all to the rest of the world during our Imperialist Era. The answer is that we gave railways to India and other places, and for at least some of the former Empire a fair Judicial System and reasonable Democracy, but seeing as we cannot manage these things at home anymore, perhaps we best have a long and hard look at where we have gone wrong in the last forty-five years, and start accepting it for what it is: A real horrible jumble.

Sorry for something like a rant.

Best wishes from George
 
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There was a similar case where someone in Paris had a wooden mask of great religious significance. They sold it and there's a very sensible French law that says that you have to give back half (?) of the proceeds because of the cloudy past and possibly dubious means of acquiring these things back in the day.
 
George J said:
On the whole, and very much in line with Great Britain's fallen status in the world, I would say that the only museum exhibits that should not be returned to their lands of origin are those that originate in GB.

Of course the Viking Exhibits in York should stay, because that is where the Vikings left them, but anything brought to Britain from foreign lands - and I means everything really - should be given back. Michealangelo should be repatriated, Leonardo, Rafeal, The Elgin Marbles, everything.

We can keep the artworks made here and that should be enough.

Then people might ponder whether Great Britain gave anything at all to the rest of the world during our Imperialist Era. The answer is that we gave railways to India and other places, and for at least some of the former Empire a fair Judicial System and reasonable Democracy, but seeing as we cannot manage these things at home anymore, perhaps we best have a long and hard look at where we have gone wrong in the last forty-five years, and start accepting it for what it is: A real horrible jumble.

Sorry for something like a rant.

Best wishes from George
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Exception - things given as a gift. I'm thinking of things like the totem pole given to The Queen by the First Nation indigenous people of a part of Canada during a royal visit. That was freely given, quite right it should be displayed and its provenance displayed.
 
Do I seem to remember that it is illegal for the British Museum to return any pieces without an act of Parliament?

Should happen though - the "saving it for their own good" argument is long outdated.
 
stevec67 said:
Exception - things given as a gift. I'm thinking of things like the totem pole given to The Queen by the First Nation indigenous people of a part of Canada during a royal visit. That was freely given, quite right it should be displayed and its provenance displayed.
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If things are given as gifts, then, as with the Viking remains left in Britain and dfisplayed at York, it hardly seems likely that anyone would object to us keeping them and displaying the origin etc.

But there is so much that is genuinely disputed and certainly stolen during the period of Pax Britanica. And as for our careful preservation of these artefacts, just examine the history of the cleaning [off of the original colouring] of the Parthenon Marbles. Vandalism does not cover it as a description.

Best wishes from George
 
George J said:
On the whole, and very much in line with Great Britain's fallen status in the world, I would say that the only museum exhibits that should not be returned to their lands of origin are those that originate in GB.

Of course the Viking Exhibits in York should stay, because that is where the Vikings left them, but anything brought to Britain from foreign lands - and I means everything really - should be given back. Michealangelo should be repatriated, Leonardo, Rafeal, The Elgin Marbles, everything.

We can keep the artworks made here and that should be enough.

Then people might ponder whether Great Britain gave anything at all to the rest of the world during our Imperialist Era. The answer is that we gave railways to India and other places, and for at least some of the former Empire a fair Judicial System and reasonable Democracy, but seeing as we cannot manage these things at home anymore, perhaps we best have a long and hard look at where we have gone wrong in the last forty-five years, and start accepting it for what it is: A real horrible jumble.

Sorry for something like a rant.

Best wishes from George
Click to expand...
For myself, I'm not in favour of returning everything in every museum and I think the cries from some corners that the museums will be emptied aren't warranted.

But I am in favour of returning items that were looted in recent history through the use of extreme violence - the Benin bronzes being another obvious example. The Horniman Museum near me has been doing just this. When I visited last year there was a display explaining why they'd been returned.

I read in Hansard that the government's argument is that Ethiopia is not a safe place for antiquities. Ironic really considering a BM member of staff has been flogging their treasures on eBay...
 
stevec67 said:
There was a similar case where someone in Paris had a wooden mask of great religious significance. They sold it and there's a very sensible French law that says that you have to give back half (?) of the proceeds because of the cloudy past and possibly dubious means of acquiring these things back in the day.
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Also the staff member who’s been nicking from the museum and hasn’t given the items back. There’s a vast amount gone on sale through auction sites.
 
It’s a bit of a tricky one.
The first point being was it looted or not? In this case, seems fairly obvious, but we are taking about history and we all know that accounts can differ over what happened.
The next point being who would the BM give them back to? Would it be an Ethopian museum, or some corrupt government officials who’ll simply pawn them off to the highest bidder?

So whilst I’m in favour of returning stolen goods, I’m very conscious of how a certain % of the population are just not nice people and could well use the opportunity for nefarious gain (both in the UK and the offended nation).

As for how they were looted, for anyone interested, have a read of this:

The Corporation That Changed the World - Second Edition: How the East India Company Shaped the Modern Multinational https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0745331955?tag=pinkfishmedia-21

That is the real history of the British Empire and it’s ghastly. Just a group of scum who ripped off not only wherever they went, but also the British people. So whilst the profits were being raked in for the select few (hence the amount of National Trust buildings), the general public paid for the Navy and Army to defend and maintain it.
When the EIC was closed down, we as the general public then paid off the shareholders for ripping us off.

Ref the railways, yes, we did build them, but NOT for the Indians. Apparently they were banned from using them when built, as they were there to move goods for the corporations.
 
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Mr_Sukebe said:
The next point being who would the BM give them back to? Would it be an Ethopian museum, or some corrupt government officials who’ll simply pawn them off to the highest bidder?
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They would be returned to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. As the tabot from the Scottish church was in 2019 - see the story I linked to above.

I don't accept the argument (and this appears to be the government's line) that nations in Africa can't be trusted with the care of the antiquities that were looted from them.

Absolutely agree with you on the history of the East India Co and British colonialism.
 
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The way our "leaders" behave the UK still wants to be seen as part of some Global Police. Sadly, like the "Met," it's institutionally corrupt.
 
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