paulfromcamden
Baffled
1. They go bust.
2. Er, that's it.
Thames Water
- Thread starter ks.234
- Start date
1. They go bust.
2. Er, that's it.
puddlesplasher
pfm Member
I've said it before many a time. Utilities that are required by everybody should be a non profit organisation like John Lewis model. Gas, electricity,, water, public transport should not be run for profit because people like dipping their gands in the money pot and not undertaking the work required to keep the infrastructure in proper running condition
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
The game of chicken continues, FT headline now revised to:
Thames Water shareholders signal readiness to take £5bn hit
That's right, they (Chinese and Abu Dhabi wealth funds, UK and Canadian pension funds, etc.) are willing to take a £5 billion hit so they don't have to invest £500 million. Totally believable.The FT article has a nifty graph showing the holding structure with 5 or 6 layers of holding/financing companies between the shareholders and regulated entity Thames Water Utilities, plus a few bits on the side with loan guarantees. A bit of debt here, a bond or two there, in total they're carrying £33 billion of debt, but still struggling to find £200 million for bonds coming to maturity, not to mention future investments to reduce sewage in rivers and coasts.
EDIT: only £18 billion in debt, not 33 (the numbers on the graph are not cumulative IIUC). So that's all right.
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Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
The snag is the UK Pension companies, etc, who may have shares. If the pension company then also fails that can both cause poverty for their pensioners *and* Government having to spend more to help them. Hence we would need to be specific about which investors get their investments nullified. i.e. go for offshore banks, etc, who got paid dividends based on hiking the water company debt. And maybe forcing repayment from those who ran the company and took massive bungs from the debt-loading.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
I would imagine that any pension fund which still has many shares in Thames Water might be considered as incompetent as Thames Water themselves..
It must be while since Thames shares looked like being a good safe long term investment.
It must be while since Thames shares looked like being a good safe long term investment.
Bob McC
Living the life of Riley
Everyone of them that supports Thames actions in reneging on the loan and demanding 40% increases.
puddlesplasher
pfm Member
If they hadn’t been privatised in the first place then these pension funds etc would invest in other places.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Indeed. They have woken up and realise that throwing good money down a (dirty) well after bad makes no sense. Shame they didn't wake up earlier.
The concern is therefore for both 'water customers' - i.e. us as people who drink water, use drains, etc, and those whose pension may now be down the swannee. Given that UK Goverment enabled this swindle via idiotic policy, etc, they need to deal with the fall-out.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I'm pretty sure we've discussed this before but...
a) if a pension fund is so poorly diversified that a blow out in any one firm or sector plunges pensioners into abject poverty then it should be immediately wound up
and
b) if my SIPP is invested in Unilever and they go bust should I expect taxpayers to compensate me? If not why not?
I don't really understand your distinction between worthy UK investors who should be bailed out and nasty foreign investors who should take a hike.
I do have some sympathy for trying to claw back divis from Macquarie who blatantly asset stripped the firm but good luck with that in practice. I think that ship has sailed.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I think it's a concern as so much money has been syphoned off huge amounts are now required now to keep the creaking infrastructure running.
Labour aren't going to write a blank cheque so customers are likely to be shafted financially.
And I don't expect they'll stop pouring sewage into our rivers any time soon. That's costs money to fix.
I don't imagine there's really any danger of the water being turned off for 15 million people.
Any government that allowed that to happen would be gone by the weekend (you'd hope at least...)
puddlesplasher
pfm Member
I blame government of both colours over time have invited companies to screw us over.
kensalriser
pfm Member
Slightly related, I have an ongoing customer service issue with Thames Water. My meter is recording continuous usage, when someone finally turned up to take a look, he told me the meter was faulty and would be replaced in two weeks. Two weeks later we called to see what was happening only to be told no, the engineer reported internal leak, you have to get your own plumber. Cue Kafka-esque exchanges until escalated to complaint resulting in £100 compensation credited to my account. Two weeks on, they've still done nothing more. Fck the £100, I just want them to fix the bloody problem. The incompetence will surprise precisely no one, of course.
Let's start with management.
puddlesplasher
pfm Member
Government sold these companies off and allowed them to rack debt up to enable to give themselves big bonuses and all at our detriment
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
The 'distinction' is that any UK residents who find their private pension is hit may then qualify for some replacement money from State Benefits. In essence, they get discarded by the Water Company, and the private sector who stole their money.
i.e. we end up paying anyway. However if we take back the water company under our own terms, the added 'state' burden might be offset to some extent by how we handle things.
People overseas will have to look for help where they are.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Oh dear. From the FT.
Thames Water’s parent company has sent a formal notice to bondholders informing them that it has defaulted on its debt, firing the starting gun on a potentially messy restructuring at the owner of Britain’s largest water utility. On Friday, one of the holding companies that owns Thames Water announced that interest payments due earlier this week on a £400mn bond “have not been paid” and it issued a “formal notice of default”.
...
Kemble’s £400mn bonds are trading at little over 15 per cent of their face value, indicating that debt investors are braced for a near-total wipeout.
This guy has a point.
Thames Water’s parent company has sent a formal notice to bondholders informing them that it has defaulted on its debt, firing the starting gun on a potentially messy restructuring at the owner of Britain’s largest water utility. On Friday, one of the holding companies that owns Thames Water announced that interest payments due earlier this week on a £400mn bond “have not been paid” and it issued a “formal notice of default”.
...
Kemble’s £400mn bonds are trading at little over 15 per cent of their face value, indicating that debt investors are braced for a near-total wipeout.
This guy has a point.
kensalriser
pfm Member
Update on my own small battle with TW.
Another two weeks had gone by with no action so it was time for another call. They reverted to the 'engineer said internal leak' line and surprisingly claimed they had photos of the engineer entering my house (he didn't).
'Can I see the photos?'
'Hold on please, Sir'...
(pause)
'We are going to email the smart meter team to send another engineer'.
They said that two weeks ago. I can't decide if they are just incompetent or incompetent and mendacious.
Another two weeks had gone by with no action so it was time for another call. They reverted to the 'engineer said internal leak' line and surprisingly claimed they had photos of the engineer entering my house (he didn't).
'Can I see the photos?'
'Hold on please, Sir'...
(pause)
'We are going to email the smart meter team to send another engineer'.
They said that two weeks ago. I can't decide if they are just incompetent or incompetent and mendacious.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
I`d go for both and add incompetently mendacious.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
I'm sure you're aware of these complaints procedures but just in case. IME it's worth opening a complaint sooner rather than later - and can sometimes be the only way to resolve an issue. Good luck.
Complaining about your water company
The complaints process for complaining about your water bill or supply, or the standard of service you have received from your water company in the first instance and what to do if you are not happy with what the water company has said.
You can say that but at the end of the day, it's the pension fund that still suffers.
The simple truth was that the Water board, Railways and Post Office were all a privatisation too far. Privatisation did not increase competition for these industries and the management even today still remain flabby around the middle.
If we renationalise it will create problems and if we don't, problems will also remain.
Complaining is dead easy, finding a solution without increasing cost to the consumer or is not going to break the bank is hell of a lot harder.