Tenson's DAC Bake-Off (09/02/2013)

[merlin]

If the object of the exercise is to 'prove' a particular point it can hardly be referred to as a bakeoff.

Ah where would this forum be without you Steven?

We love you!

Happy New Year.

 

[Plutox]

The whole point here is to remove the usual volume-riding, dancing salesmen etc, etc.

THANK YOU! Common sense, finally. It's not a laboratory exercise designed to actually prove anything at all, but merely to ensure that the playing field is kept as level as is reasonably practical.

 

[Steven Toy]

I am not saying that the test, for that is what it is, a test not a bakeoff, is rigged. I am saying that some of the controls may mask some of the differences. This in itself is a kind of spin-off argument from the original premise of the test.

As the controls are seemingly more important than the potential differences the latter may be sacrificed for the former.

I am sceptical of the notion that louder is perceived as better. Louder is just louder and the volume can be adjusted until an optimum level is found. I consider level matching to be unnecessary but I guess it is essential for proof.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

I really hope that major differences are identified and a stand out performer is found

I have heard some of the DACs on the proposed list & know about the others - I also believe Andrew's report on the DAX Discrete & if it doesn't stand out from the rest of the current list, then I reckon something is wrong.

 

[seranil]

So if the results of the test don't match your belief or hearsays the test must be flawed???
Interesting logic!

 

[Steven Toy]

So if the results of the test don't match your belief or hearsays the test must be flawed???
Interesting logic!

Comprehension fail.

 

[seranil]

No worries. I am well aware from your numerous posts that logic and critical thinking is not your forte.

 

[Steven Toy]

No worries. I am well aware from your numerous posts that logic and critical thinking is not your forte.

Comprehension fail on your part.

Critical thinking requires an open mind btw.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

So if the results of the test don't match your belief or hearsays the test must be flawed???
Interesting logic!

Yes, Seranil, in just the same way that I can tell you there is something wrong if you can't hear the difference between your Metrum & other DACs. The Metrum is a non-oversampling (NOS) DAC. These types of DACs have measurable & audible differences to other DACs.

I already gave you all you need to follow this logic. I told you this already in another thread & Tenson already knows that NOS sounds noticeably different - here's what he had to say about NOS DACs on his own forum

If by analogue sounding you mean round and cuddly sounding then a NOS DAC is probably a good idea.

Otherwise if you simply mean lacking in harshness and other nasties then I have to recommend my own modified Behringer SRC

 

[muzzer]

I have a NOS/filterless dac I would not call it cuddly or round.

 

[gassor]

Just wondering if clinic heart transplant surgeons have the same kind of ceterus paribus requirements as demanded on by some on here when deciding where to make a life or death incision.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

I have a NOS/filterless dac I would not call it cuddly or round.

Good for you - take that up with Tenson so & his generalisation of the NOS sound & how it differs!
I have a Metrum & can tell you that it is neither cuddly or round either but it sounds noticeably different to my other DACs. There are technical reasons for NOS sounding different to other DACs.

 

[seranil]

Yes, Seranil, in just the same way that I can tell you there is something wrong if you can't hear the difference between your Metrum & other DACs. The Metrum is a non-oversampling (NOS) DAC. These types of DACs have measurable & audible differences to other DACs.

I am sure there is measurable differences but I haven't come across evidence about audible differences beyond subjective reviews using poor methodology.
You are entitled to your belief but after spending four days A/B those two DACs I KNOW they sound exactly the same through my system and my ears.

 

[Steven Toy]

Yes, Seranil, in just the same way that I can tell you there is something wrong if you can't hear the difference between your Metrum & other DACs. The Metrum is a non-oversampling (NOS) DAC. These types of DACs have measurable & audible differences to other DACs.

I am sure there is measurable differences but I haven't come across evidence about audible differences beyond subjective reviews using poor methodology.
You are entitled to your belief but after spending four days A/B those two DACs I KNOW they sound exactly the same through my system and my ears.

Earwax?

 

[Ciunas Audio]

Yes, Seranil, in just the same way that I can tell you there is something wrong if you can't hear the difference between your Metrum & other DACs. The Metrum is a non-oversampling (NOS) DAC. These types of DACs have measurable & audible differences to other DACs.

I am sure there is measurable differences but I haven't come across evidence about audible differences beyond subjective reviews using poor methodology.
You are entitled to your belief but after spending four days A/B those two DACs I KNOW they sound exactly the same through my system and my ears.

Yes, Seranil, I know that you don't hear the difference, as you've said before, that's why I can tell you that either your system or ears are letting you down. It's easy logic to follow, exactly the same as applies to what I said about the DAX Discrete & it's ranking (based on how Elephantears, Andrew has described it)

 

[seranil]

Earwax?

Might well be
Not everybody is as gifted or has ears as clean as yours

 

[arthur]

Come off it Steven, Simon is doing whatever he can to provide a truly level playing field here. I can understand technical folk criticising certain minutiae of his methodology, but assigning motives due to one's own biases or paranoia or whatever is a bit much IMO. It is also very rude. The whole point here is to remove the usual volume-riding, dancing salesmen etc, etc. If you were a real subjectivist and only interested in what you can hear you'd be all for it!

Might it be politely suggested that Steven is a stevenist?

 

[Tenson]

Really? Surely that could well raise the output Z and, as such, cause rather more damage than the problem it's supposed to solve

Oh absolutely the difference in noise floor due to output Z is likely far in excess of the digital attenuation artefacts.

 

[Brian]

I know that there are two schools of thought on this, including your own, but I hope that the actions of the organiser are genuine so that we benefit.

If it is found that there is little difference then so be it. If there is a difference then I will arrange a home demo.

If you're interested in using a separate DAC I think you should arrange a home demo regardless of the outcome of the test/bakeoff being arranged by Simon. Surely what matters is what you can hear using a DAC in your own system in your own room.

 

[oldius]

What I meant was that if there is very little difference found then I won't bother; I'll just buy more music!