Tenson's DAC Bake-Off (09/02/2013)

[merlin]

Do you sell Dacs for listening to in hifi systems or for putting on the mantlepiece? We are talking about differences that are audible in the expected use.

People are making comparisons through loudspeakers - I have little doubt that Simon's speakers will be more transparent to differences than many I see mentioned in people's systems.

If you purely want to find differences, measure the things in a lab. If you find potentially audible differences there, then one or more of the dacs are most likely incompetently designed and are modifying/distorting the signal.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

It's your statement that you have to defend - I said nothing about my DACs, how or why I sell them or how they are used - completely immaterial!

You said "Speakers will only cause distortion and serve to hide genuine differences.". So therefore he would be wasting his time bringing his DACs to Tensons bakeoff to hear genuine differences between them - as per your statement.

Do you sell Dacs for listening to in hifi systems or for putting on the mantlepiece? We are talking about differences that are audible in the expected use.

People are making comparisons through loudspeakers - I have little doubt that Simon's speakers will be more transparent to differences than many I see mentioned in people's systems.

If you purely want to find differences, measure the things in a lab. If you find potentially audible differences there, then one or more of the dacs are most likely incompetently designed and are modifying/distorting the signal.

 

[merlin]

John. I really don't need to defend anything - you seem hell bent on causing argument.

I note that your website proudly proclaims "No orders being taken in December".

Might I suggest that if you spent more time on your business and less on trying to court controversy, you might have been able to take more orders and make more money. At the very least you would have time to update your site. It's January now.

I'm off to enjoy myself.

 

[Ciunas Audio]

It's just a logic conclusion from your statement. You made a claim - fine let it stand, you don't need to defend it

This is the second post in < 5mins (on different threads) where people show a touching concern for my business. Thanks, I feel the warmth

 

[bec143]

There certainly seems to be a shared personality phenotype among many of the smallish UK DIY/manufacturer types who have graced PFM over the years.

 

[Telstar]

When is the comparison scheduled for?

 

[Tenson]

19th.

 

[avole]

Which DACs so far?

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

The Metrum is a non-oversampling (NOS) DAC. These types of DACs have measurable & audible differences to other DACs.

I already gave you all you need to follow this logic. I told you this already in another thread & Tenson already knows that NOS sounds noticeably different

This post stuck in my mind and I thought it interesting for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it argues (and I would agree) that DACs do sound inherently different. However, I've often wondered why. According to Nyquist, and the accepted theorems about digital sampling, a 16/44.1 sample has only one solution when converted from digital to analogue. That's the essence of the 'bits is bits' argument.

On that basis, any audible differences between DACs would be down to noise being introduced, or the implementation of the digital filters or analogue output stage. That's the conventional argument of the 'bits is bits' camp.

I've long thought that some designs of DACs do sound inherently different, though, the dCS Ring DAC for example, and bitstream designs for another. The post above seems to agree that DAC design can produce different characteristics, from the same digital signal. It also (unless he's been misquoted or taken out of context) suggests that the host for this test agrees.

Am I misunderstanding something here? Can anybody shed any light?

 

[darrylfunk]

This post stuck in my mind and I thought it interesting for a couple of reasons. Firstly, it argues (and I would agree) that DACs do sound inherently different. However, I've often wondered why. According to Nyquist, and the accepted theorems about digital sampling, a 16/44.1 sample has only one solution when converted from digital to analogue. That's the essence of the 'bits is bits' argument.

On that basis, any audible differences between DACs would be down to noise being introduced, or the implementation of the digital filters or analogue output stage. That's the conventional argument of the 'bits is bits' camp.

I've long thought that some designs of DACs do sound inherently different, though, the dCS Ring DAC for example, and bitstream designs for another. The post above seems to agree that DAC design can produce different characteristics, from the same digital signal. It also (unless he's been misquoted or taken out of context) suggests that the host for this test agrees.

Am I misunderstanding something here? Can anybody shed any light?

it's pretty obvious that a dac difference 'can' make a sound difference....very obviously, especially if like many nos dacs they are made to sound different on purpose....dacs can easily sound very different. very old dacs used in some cd players had huge distortion at low levels and poor linearity and often the high output overloaded older amps more used to an input of 150 mvolts instead of a full 2 volt out.

i well remember the rotel rcd 855 and it's bitstream brother the rcd965. the bitstream player only output half the voltage against the cheaper machine and sometimes first impressions with no volume matching would leave people preferring the cheaper machine but when the outputs were matched most people liked the bitstream player far better.

reducing the reasons for glaring differences is the best effort people can make to allow clearer comparisons....that and avoiding dancing dealers and story telling gurus in shops and on the internet....

 

[Sue Pertwee-Tyr]

dacs can easily sound very different. very old dacs used in some cd players had huge distortion at low levels and poor linearity and often the high output overloaded older amps more used to an input of 150 mvolts instead of a full 2 volt out.

I think I already said something pretty similar to that. I'm more interested in whether the DAC technology itself is considered able to influence the sound.

 

[darrylfunk]

I think I already said something pretty similar to that. I'm more interested in whether the DAC technology itself is considered able to influence the sound.

i used to sit on a listening panel of a manufacturer where we listened to various new dac boards and remember the closeness in sound between various dacs....really close when you think about it....but i guess the better the dacs the more they should sound like a transparent ideal.

i remember hearing a set of analog devices (i believe) dacs vs some very expensive burr brown things and we all thought they were very very close in sound.

i think some manufacturers like to add flavour to the sound but i tend to find those dacs less discriminating and more like an over seasoned take on the dac recipe.

 

[muzzer]

Which DACs so far?

I don't think anyone knows or cares anymore it's all got lost in the noise.

 

[Robert]

So according to this statement, Tensons setup is not going to reveal genuine differences as he is using speakers?

Mike said nothing of the sort.
Please think about what you post.

Clearly not all loudspeaker systems are born equal, so there is always going to be some degree of masking since transducers are imperfect. This is quite different to stating that loudspeakers cannot reveal differences.

 

[Robert]

I don't think anyone knows or cares anymore it's all got lost in the noise.

Noise form frightened manufacturers, largely.

But don't worry, well take the planing offline if necessary.
This will happen with the results published and if certain manufacturers don't like it, tough.

 

[Cable Monkey]

You seem to have missed my next post. Please read it, then all will become clear.

Then you may blush apologetically to your heart's content !

After an admission like that, why do you think it should be me who is blushing? It simply confirms my suspicions. You were being deliberately provocative.

 

[MVV]

I don't think anyone knows or cares anymore it's all got lost in the noise.

Sadly, this is true. It has been rather an effective spoiling operation. Although I think more has been spoiled than was intended.

 

[Tenson]

I've kept the 2nd post on this thread updated with the people who are interested in coming and what they might bring.

 

[Telstar]

I think I already said something pretty similar to that. I'm more interested in whether the DAC technology itself is considered able to influence the sound.

I definitely believe so (and I am a bit skeptical of the Nyquist theorem for loudspeaker reproduction too). Multibit and Sigma-Delta DACs do sound very different.

 

[onlyconnect]

I definitely believe so (and I am a bit skeptical of the Nyquist theorem for loudspeaker reproduction too). Multibit and Sigma-Delta DACs do sound very different.

There is nothing wrong with the theorem, but it is only a theorem.

What do you think of this example?

http://www.emil-berliner-studios.com/en/chronik5.html

Much ado about nothing: The experts and parts of the Hi-Fi/High End scene are at cross purposes over the new recording format DSD, on which the Super Audio CD is based, and possible advantages of this format in comparison to PCM, as it is used for CD and (in its high-resolution variety) for DVD-Audio, the rival format of SACD. Whereas the discussion is marred by the use of unsuitable comparisons and untenable marketing slogans, EBS really undertakes to compare the formats. They are the first (and perhaps the only) team worldwide to do so. During the recording of Mahler´s 2nd Symphony (Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, Gilbert Kaplan, released on Deutsche Grammophon CD 474 380-2, SACD 477 594-2) in the Musikvereinssaal, Vienna, the whole recording sequence is carried out by using both PCM and DSD technology following the microphone. To exclude sound variations by different A/D converters, the team uses special converters capable of dealing with both formats. The result of the subsequent listening comparisons by double-blind test is as straight-forward as sobering: There is no difference whatsoever.

Tim