Streaming: Qobuz, DLNA, UPnP etc

[Tony L]

Tony> sounds like you’ve had another experience of the importance in digital of how well it’s been implemented, as against the more obvious chip/logic differences.

For a long while now I’ve been convinced (standard res) digital audio has been sorted for a very long time. This being why big heavy Sony ES, high-end Marantz, Naim, Meridian, DPA etc CD players and DACs remain so sought after. I remember listening to a CDS2 that passed through on a commission sale and it was still a stunning sounding thing. You’d not mistake it for a budget player. To be honest I’d have bought it myself if it wasn’t so huge (two big Naim boxes). What’s that, 25 year old technology, maybe older. I’m sure the reason these ancient players sound so good is the no-compromise analogue stages, PSUs etc. Proper solid audio engineering. The DSX fits in this category. It may be a but of a dinosaur as streaming technology moves fairly fast, but within its network envelope or used as a simple DAC it is still clearly a high-end device.

It is also interesting contextualising this in the frame of digital vs. analogue. That ‘60s vintage TD-124 is in no way humiliated by any of this. Give it a genuinely good record and it holds its own or even pulls ahead. I’d be hard put to pick a favourite between say the vinyl and 24/48 of Hania Rani’s Ghosts, with Yello’s Toy the vinyl is ahead (against 24/48), with a typically too long per side modern indie record, say the new English Teacher album I mentioned upthread (which is excellent) the 24/48 is a long way ahead. Get to 25 minutes a side and vinyl is long done for. IIRC anything over 18 minutes costs 1db in dynamic range per additional minute, that’s 7db dynamic range gone. That one should have been cut over three sides or served up as a double-45.

PS I’m leaning towards just buying Firestream. It does exactly what I need and seems to do it neatly and reliably. Plex looks like something I neither want or need, and Minimserver seems to be an annual sub for the full thing (though would add internet radio with a plug-in only available on the paid version). I’m pretty sure Firestream is a one-off payment. Fit and forget. Not something I’ll use that often, but very useful.

 

[HiFiman]

Another UPnP is Asset one off payment and that's it, Minimserver is an annual subscription.

As a previous owner of a CDS2 and now using a Chord DAVE digital replay has never sounded sooo good, sounds like your thoroughly enjoying the Chord DSX.

 

[vacuum_tubes]

I remain absolutely convinced it is a latency issue and my current network performance is on the knife-edge between success and fail as far as the DSX is concerned with Qobuz.

I doubt it is latency but you have a cisco switch now so do a packet capture and see what is happening between the DSX and Qobuz

Install wireshark on your laptop (there is a Mac dmg for it) and then create a monitor (span) session on the switch

If your DSX is plugged into port 1 and your laptop into port 2 do the following:

conf t
monitor session 1 source int gi0/1 both
monitor session 1 destination int gi0/2

 

[cporton]

I read this thread with interest, having not been aware of the Bufferbloat or Cloudflare tests... but experiencing, for example, occasional freezing on video conference calls that were annoying.

I did the tests and got a Grade F on Bufferbloat and "Average / Poor / Average" on Cloudflare... all using my BT Smart Hub 2.

So I bought a Draytek Vigor V166 and a Ubiquiti Edgerouter 4 to replace the BT Smart Hub 2.

I now have an "A+" grade on Bufferbloat and "Great / Great / Great" on Cloudflare... I'll report back if I find any on-going problems but for now, thanks for pointing me in the right direction

Chris

 

[Tony L]

I’ll be interested to see how you get on. I’m not convinced it is the whole issue, I think my broadband is pretty poor latency wise, but I’m sure it is a factor. I can’t get the DSX to stream from Qobuz reliably with the Smart Hub Two at all. It is clearly better, but still imperfect, with the Smart Hub One. The bufferbloat tests indicate the One has far less latency. Neither are well regarded routers.

I‘m not doing anything until I’ve had the broadband fibre update installed (Thurs this week), but if that doesn’t fix it I’ll certainly buy a new router. That is basically all I can do here.

 

[cctaylor]

I've just run the cloudfare speed test twice. Had "bad, bad, poor" and "bad, bad, bad" with latency at 23ms on 40+ Mbps. I'm still on copper and am about 0.5 miles from the exchange.

I haven't really had any real issues with drop outs even 192/24 feeds. Currently watching BBCs Mammals on UHD with a stable feed at 19.30.

I will soon be changing over to fibre as it will be a cheaper contract. No need for better performance as I'm living on my own.

 

[HifiDan]

I’ve just picked up a Draytek V2762 router cheap, I mean £10 cheap locally to try as a proof of concept that my Sky hub could be the issue with my drop-outs. I get 40mbps on a copper line (can’t get fibre or virgin media here.) Qobuz Hi-Rez files download at a typical 9mbps, CD quality around 2mbps. I’ve unplugged everything on the network (other than the streamer) and it makes no difference, still get drop-outs. If mine improves with this router then I will splash out on a more expensive router.

 

[vinylslug]

I don’t know if you’re still interested in a 3rd party WiFi system, but I bought a set of Tp-link Deco https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B12WYSLD?tag=pinkfishmedia-21 to fix my WiFi issues and it’s been a revelation. Previously I had sky hub, sky q box, 2 sky minis and a sky extender, which would supposedly give full coverage of my house. But there were continual dropouts and the wifi didn’t reach the extremes of the house - making playing music for the shower a non-starter.
Adding the deco set into the mix - literally plugging it into the sky hub by Ethernet and using the deco system exclusively for WiFi and I haven’t notice a single drop out and have full strength WiFi through the house. They’re expensive but after living with this system for a few months, it feels like a bargain!

 

[HifiDan]

I don’t know if you’re still interested in a 3rd party WiFi system, but I bought a set of Tp-link Deco https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B0B12WYSLD?tag=pinkfishmedia-21 to fix my WiFi issues and it’s been a revelation. Previously I had sky hub, sky q box, 2 sky minis and a sky extender, which would supposedly give full coverage of my house. But there were continual dropouts and the wifi didn’t reach the extremes of the house - making playing music for the shower a non-starter.
Adding the deco set into the mix - literally plugging it into the sky hub by Ethernet and using the deco system exclusively for WiFi and I haven’t notice a single drop out and have full strength WiFi through the house. They’re expensive but after living with this system for a few months, it feels like a bargain!

I’ve just plugged the DrayTek in next to the sky hub to make sure no one has changed the password etc, I’ve got a full, strong Wi-Fi signal all over the house with no extenders plugged in. Th sky hub barely makes it out the living room.

 

[Tony L]

I haven't really had any real issues with drop outs even 192/24 feeds. Currently watching BBCs Mammals on UHD with a stable feed at 19.30.

The thing here I suspect is some of us are trying to push old local network music players such as my DSX to work as streamers. Things have come so far broadband-wise in the past decade or so I don’t think this is unreasonable and I suspect it would work on any broadband & LAN a modern gamer would be happy with.

It isn’t bandwidth. I can happily watch 4k TV with the current implication, but the TV is a (fairly) modern one and is effectively a computer that can pre-fetch and buffer data. The DSX isn’t. If the data isn’t there the instant it is needed it will just drop-out. It has no RAM buffer. It can’t pre-fetch. The more modern Poly/Mojo combo also has no issue, I assume it has sufficient buffering ability. I know my current broadband/LAN has latency thanks to the Smart Hub Two because I can measure it. It slows under load. I’m sure it is a factor in the DSX dropping. It certainly won’t be the whole picture, but it will be part of it. I’m sure I’ll be router shopping.

PS Anyone here familiar with the current Draytek range? The 2927AX has caught my eye (Amazon). Don’t need DSL, so WAN only is fine. I want WiFi 6, want mesh, want QoS etc. Don’t mind spending that for a good solid item with a lot of future potential. I’ve also been looking at Eero, but I don’t like the Amazon lock-in etc, plus I’d like to be able to get at the low-level options available even if I end up using it pretty much set to factory defaults. Even so it is more than I really need and I may have missed a simpler option.

 

[vinylslug]

, so I want WiFi 6, want mesh, want QoS etc.

the Deco set has wifi 6e, tri band etc. worth a look. It’s probably comparable (if not better than) the eero but with no Amazon tie in.

 

[Tony L]

Will have a look...

 

[beammeup]

Has the Cisco helped stabilise your streaming situation?

Even though I have Cisco's to hand - I have never bothered to install them in my own audio system so I'm interested in the outcome from your experience.

 

[Paul_Riordan]

The thing here I suspect is some of us are trying to push old local network music players such as my DSX to work as streamers. Things have come so far broadband-wise in the past decade or so I don’t think this is unreasonable and I suspect it would work on any broadband & LAN a modern gamer would be happy with.

It isn’t bandwidth. I can happily watch 4k TV with the current implication, but the TV is a (fairly) modern one and is effectively a computer that can pre-fetch and buffer data. The DSX isn’t. If the data isn’t there the instant it is needed it will just drop-out. It has no RAM buffer. It can’t pre-fetch. The more modern Poly/Mojo combo also has no issue, I assume it has sufficient buffering ability. I know my current broadband/LAN has latency thanks to the Smart Hub Two because I can measure it. It slows under load. I’m sure it is a factor in the DSX dropping. It certainly won’t be the whole picture, but it will be part of it. I’m sure I’ll be router shopping.

PS Anyone here familiar with the current Draytek range? The 2927AX has caught my eye (Amazon). Don’t need DSL, so WAN only is fine. I want WiFi 6, want mesh, want QoS etc. Don’t mind spending that for a good solid item with a lot of future potential. I’ve also been looking at Eero, but I don’t like the Amazon lock-in etc, plus I’d like to be able to get at the low-level options available even if I end up using it pretty much set to factory defaults. Even so it is more than I really need and I may have missed a simpler option.

Hi Tony

I have a Draytek 2865 which you are welcome to have, if you want it (no cost other than postage). I used to use it when I needed to support VDSL as well as an external WAN port - I now just need two external WAN ports, which this Draytek does not have.. It worked very well, it does not have wireless I use a separate MESH network. I replaced the Draytek with a TP-Link ER605, again does not have wireless built in - but it only costs about £40-45..... it works really well and has not needed any kind of maintenance/reboot for the last 3 months..... My mesh network is also TP-Link, M4R its not WI-FI 6 but is plenty fast enough and only costs £99 for 3 access points.

Hope this helps.
Paul

 

[Tony L]

Thank you Paul, very much appreciated, but I do feel I need integrated wi-fi, so I’ll pass.

 

[vacuum_tubes]

but I do feel I need integrated wi-fi

It still would be, having a different WiFi mesh or AP doesn't mean it can't be integrated

You just plug the AP or mesh into a LAN port on the Draytek and the WiFi clients get their DHCP lease from that rather than the wifi stuff.

 

[Tony L]

New fibre connection is in! Looks to be giving 146mbs down and 30 or so up, so at the top end of the marketing spec so far.

Still get a ‘grade C‘ on the bufferbloat test, but that’s a router thing, and the speeds are now so different it may no longer be significant. Time to live with it for a while and see if the DSX likes it any better...

 

[cooky1257]

Can't access the buffer bloat test anymore, but getting Good/Good/Good on cloud flare.

 

[Tony L]

Positive results so far. A good two and a half hours of Qobuz without any drops, even at 24/192. Early days yet, I’ve had clear evenings before only for it to be awful the next day, but it certainly isn’t worse!

 

[HifiDan]

So today was the big test as to whether upgrading from my sky hub router to a DrayTek router reduced drop-out/buffering. Saturday afternoons is the worst time I experience this, to the point pretty much every track drops out/buffers on Qobuz. With the DrayTek plugged in, I’ve only had 2 drop-outs all afternoon which is a massive improvement. Funny thing is, with the DrayTek, my download speeds dropped by about 5mbps with latency halved on speed test but on cloudfare, I’m getting the same latency as the Sky hub. Whilst streaming I unplugged the rj11 cable, after 3 seconds, music stops which confirms the Linn Akurate had barely any buffering, suppose they’d like the Chord Tony has.