Tony L
Administrator
And the genius that was Oscar Peterson.
Stone Roses? WTF?
- Thread starter Mullardman
- Start date
And the genius that was Oscar Peterson.
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
And to connect with another thread, Jools fav record is Night Train by Oscar Peterson, so he has got taste.
Saw Oscar live before I cared much about jazz, and was blown away. Got taken there by girl I had just met hours before in the pub, nice!
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
This is from direct experience?
Because my experience was different.
In pre-Beatles times, here in the South, one was as likely to hear Jackie Wilson as one was The Everly Brothers. Pop radio was playing a mix of sources, and after sundown they might add in some Howlin' Wolf or John Lee Hooker along with the Bruce Channell and Buddy Holly. And post-Beatles there was never a shortage of Motown, Stax/Volt and Atlantic artists on the air along with the British Invasion and their American imitators.
Sure you can tap into a treasure trove of great sides that didn't become hits, but that's not a fate suffered exclusively by Black artists, only a small percentage of releases in any genre become hits.
kasperhauser
pfm Member
So in 1960, we ignorant Americans could buy Mick and Keith's watered down, bastardized blues-ish noise, or we could go to Newport and see Muddy Waters.
[YOUTUBE]1gNs-29s-0Q[/YOUTUBE]
Give it a rest, won't you? It's a myth that blues and jazz were unknown and unpopular here until some English kids educated us. Bo Diddley was on the Ed Sullivan Show - the most popular variety show in the country - in 1955 (Mick Jagger turned 12 that year). Howlin' Wolf had already had 4 top 10 hits on the Billboard charts by 1960. Ray Charles was headlining the biggest white clubs in the country. And my folks (po' white trash southern crackers) and all their friends had records by all these people and more, but had never heard of the Rolling Stones or the Bluesbreakers, and my parents never owned albums by any of the artists you claim were so instrumental in getting black music an American audience.
Your "Brits saved black music" schtick is a lie, pure and simple, and it only serves to reinforce how thoroughly unoriginal all these English acts were.
Joe Hutch
Mate of the bloke
Er, no. You couldn't buy that until 1963.
Greg
2t5b
I don't think there's much point getting into this sort of thing. In simple terms there has been a healthy two way, mutually beneficial relationship between Britain (and other parts of Europe) and the USA.
There's little doubt though that more contemporary US black music, which has struggled to make significant impact in the US, has been better received in the UK. There are still divisions of music along lines of race in the US that are significantly less marked in the UK.
There's little doubt though that more contemporary US black music, which has struggled to make significant impact in the US, has been better received in the UK. There are still divisions of music along lines of race in the US that are significantly less marked in the UK.
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
The English acts were unoriginal and I never been an admirer of the Chicken Shack/Fleetwood Mac blues by number approach in the 60s, or the John Mayal can't fail blues, but facts are facts.
Howling Wolf made the top 10 only in the R&B charts, by 1962 Ray Charles had recorded "Modern Sounds in Country and Western Music", and Bo Diddley, self proclaimed inventor of Rock n Roll, was never a bluesman. Muddy Waters has thanked the Rolling Stones many times for putting him on the international stage.
Saying the Brits saved black music has no validity and no-one would argue that, but the UK and Europe provided blues and jazz acts (who often went to live there) with much greater acceptance and recognition than they got at home.
Tony L
Administrator
Let us not also forget that at the time much of the US was so inherently racist that there were comparatively few clubs where a white audience could see black acts or vice-versa. Sure, there were some forward-thinking labels, clubs and promoters, but the whole thing does need to be viewed against a backdrop of the civil-rights movement etc. A very different world to places like the UK and France where jazz, blues etc was welcomed.
kasperhauser
pfm Member
Yes, facts are facts - there was, in fact, already an entire industry built around this black music that the likes of Mick and Eric "introduced" us to, and Howlin' Wolf and many others had built legendary careers, somehow without any Englishmen telling Americans what records to buy. Puzzling fact, that one.
Yes, by 1962 Ray Charles was already acknowledged as a musical genius, and his foray into country music only further solidified that - somehow, again, without John Mayall's help.
Yes, The Rolling Stones and others did contribute greatly to the appreciation of blues music on, as you put it, "the international stage", i.e., beyond the US. Here, a great many blues artists already had fame and appreciation. But I have no doubt Muddy was very grateful for the Danish and German fans he gained through the Stones and their ilk.
kasperhauser
pfm Member
What many of these artists gained by moving/performing abroad had less to do with their acceptance as musical greats by a record buying public than it did with their finding greater acceptance as human beings by the public in general. I make no excuses for the racism they endured, or escaped, as it were. Good for them for finding equality wherever they were able to do so, and good for the countries that embraced them as human beings the way their own country, in many ways, never did.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
No, not from direct experience. Happy to bow to yours. Maybe I was adding impressions of the 1950s radio scene, to the very clear racial segregation which existed into the 1960s to arrive at a false view.
I stand corrected.
Mull
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
Sidney Bechet and Josephine Baker spring to mind.
I was privileged to meet this lady in the twilight of her career, when she worked the same 'Olde Time Music Hall' revival gigs as my late Father in Law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adelaide_Hall
Mull
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Considering that Blacks are about 13% of the US population, if anything Black music was overrepresented in the music marketplace if you go strictly by a quota system.
Now if you go by merit instead of demographics numbers, then yes the Black artists deserved even more prominence.
As for segregation, the worst of that was concentrated in only a few states - Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia were clearly the worst offenders, then Louisiana, E. Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, the Carolinas and N. Florida, things got less bad as you went away from that core area. I'm not saying racism didn't exist elsewhere, but it wasn't institutionalized to the same extent.
'Course it was all the fault of the English, they brought the slaves here in the first place...
Mescalito
pfm Member
Considering that Blacks are about 13% of the US population, if anything Black music was overrepresented in the music marketplace if you go strictly by a quota system.
Now if you go by merit instead of demographics numbers, then yes the Black artists deserved even more prominence.
As for segregation, the worst of that was concentrated in only a few states - Mississippi, Alabama and Georgia were clearly the worst offenders, then Louisiana, E. Texas, Arkansas, Tennessee, the Carolinas and N. Florida, things got less bad as you went away from that core area. I'm not saying racism didn't exist elsewhere, but it wasn't institutionalized to the same extent.
'Course it was all the fault of the English, they brought the slaves here in the first place...
It only went pear shaped once you had kicked us out! I knew no good would come of this emancipation malarkey
But seriously, we owe you guys and massive debt. Jazz, blues, gospel, country, rock....just about every genre of popular music was synthesised from the social ferment that is/was the USA.
Chris
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
Two points:
Havent you ever listened to the experiences of black musicians in the 50s, 60s and 70s in the States?
When you say "wasn't institutionalized to the same extent" what do you mean, where there segregated audiences or not?
When the Beatles toured in 1965 they found segregated audiences in California and refused to play.
jackbarron
Chelsea, London
Just seen The Stone Roses film. In the early '80s they were into riding scooters and going to Northern Soul clubs. There is great footage of them as teenagers.
The film itself is well worth seeing, although there is no new interview material apart from the press conference when they announced they were reforming. Hence Shane Meadows doesn't ask: why did you split up? Mind you enough reasons crop up during the film.
The rehearsal section is a bit long. Tthe real magic are the gigs and the fans who made it to Warrington Parr Hall for the warm-up. The spirit of what made the Roses and the scene so special in 1989 is captured brilliantly in this section.
The old footage from Spike Island looks wild.
Jack
The film itself is well worth seeing, although there is no new interview material apart from the press conference when they announced they were reforming. Hence Shane Meadows doesn't ask: why did you split up? Mind you enough reasons crop up during the film.
The rehearsal section is a bit long. Tthe real magic are the gigs and the fans who made it to Warrington Parr Hall for the warm-up. The spirit of what made the Roses and the scene so special in 1989 is captured brilliantly in this section.
The old footage from Spike Island looks wild.
Jack
jackbarron
Chelsea, London
It's out now.
Jack
Jack