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Stephen Hawking Is Taking Legal Action Against Jeremy Hunt

But we do need the kind of honest and relatively transparent debate where there is some kind of relationship between inputs and outputs.

Indeed. But the obfuscation, the deliberate underfunding, the endless re-structures, the wry 'enigmatic and exceptionally annoying' smirk on the face of J. Hunt etc., make such a debate almost inaccessible to mere mortals.

The original concept and funding mechanism for the NHS was very simple and seemingly transparent. The current arrangements aren't. This fuels suspicion, especially in the context of the Tory record of cuts, 'downsizing ' the State and flogging everything in sight. 'We haven't got any money' just will not do..

Mull
 
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Indeed. But the obfuscation, the deliberate underfunding, the endless re-structures, the wry 'enigmatic and exceptionally annoying' smirk on the face of J. Hunt etc., make such a debate almost inaccessible to mere mortals.

The original concept and funding mechanism for the NHS was very simple and seemingly transparent. The current arrangements aren't. This fuels suspicion, especially in the context of the Tory record of cuts, 'downsizing ' the State and flogging everything in site. 'We haven't got any money' just will not do..

Mull
Indeed. We, as a nation, need to have a grown up conversation about the NHS and its funding. Unfortunately, politicians of all stripes appear unwilling or incapable of having such a conversation, which is a shame as it should start with them. I have no idea how we'd initiate such a conversation, but I'd have thought one of the health think tanks ought to be well-placed?
 
It's not about you Jack, for all your predictable and self-indulgent cant. It's about the patients ...

If you are not capable of understanding that, or alternatively dismiss anyone who thinks it's an issue as ZOMG PRIVATISING TORY SCUM, then we're probably on a hiding to nothing, not that that's predictable in any way in these kind of PFM threads.

Yeah, it is about the patients. Day after day people working in the NHS say in the media that the institution is short of money.

The current government has not invested enough in the NHS and social care to keep up with the increase in patient numbers, the elderly and quite possibly inflation. This is why the NHS is falling apart and it directly effects patients, including me.

Your arguments on the whole back up what the government says about the NHS. I haven't called you part of the Privatising Tory Scum, in fact I haven't used that phrase at all. I do however think the government is incredibly dishonest in virtually every area. It announces spin after spin, which is what I see you doing.

To say as you did "The point is this; we do not have enough money and are not going to get any under any prospective future Government, of any political colour" is pure BS.

Attlee and Nye Bevan started the NHS in 1948 after WW II, when the UK was in massive debt. Corbyn could likewise revamp the NHS and stop it going down the road to privatisation.

Whether Corbyn will do this, or even get into power, remains to be seen. One thing is for sure though, he couldn't do a worse job than Jeremy Hunt and the Tories, who are a disgrace.

Jack
 
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If you genuinely believe a statement as entirely fatuous as 'as long as people have disposable income, then there's spare money for the NHS' then you've essentially disappeared up your own fundament.

You'll have to explain In layman's terms, If you want me to understand. At the moment It feels like you're writing lots of stuff that's not enforcing your argument - the expression "bullshit baffles brains" comes to mind.

Regarding disposable Income - Are you saying that putting more money In to the NHS won't help? Or are you saying something else?

From what I understand the graph you posted was made by a private company that obviously has private health care In It's best Interest and more Importantly has been proven to be a load of tosh. You come across as an Intelligent guy, so I'd be very surprised If you didn't know the graph was worthless. This makes me wonder what your motives for defending the Torries are? I seriously doubt It's for the good of the people.

I believe a step In the right direction would be to tackle tax avoidance by the rich. if all that lost money went Into the NHS, It would reduce suffering and save lives - Link. How could It not?
 
Yeah, it is about the patients. Day after day people working in the NHS say in the media that the institution is short of money.

The current government has not invested enough in the NHS and social care to keep up with the increase in patient numbers, the elderly and quite possibly inflation. This is why the NHS is falling apart and it directly effects patients, including me.
We shouldn't forget the effect this has on staff either. People talk about low staff morale like this can be dealt with if people just give themselves a bit of a stiff talking to. What we're actually talking about, in many cases, is borderline depression. Imagine if you knew that your day job always meant you'd be struggling to scrape together the resources to help somebody in serious need, and that quite often you'd fail to achieve it. Let's not forget that these are the 'caring professions' staffed, in large part, by people who chose this career as a vocation, because they have a desire to care for others. If you don't have that desire to the same extent, it's probably difficult to empathise with somebody who does, but whose day to day routine prevents them doing what they know they should be doing.

Imagine having to tell somebody that the treatment they need to arrest a cancer will be delayed, possibly to the point where the cancer will become more difficult to treat. Imagine having to tell somebody dying from disease that there are no funds for a treatment that might help them. Imagine turning up for work, knowing that much of your time will be spent phoning round trying to get a bed for somebody in urgent need of in-patient treatment. Imagine knowing this is only likely to get worse, not better, in time.

Is it any wonder the NHS struggles to get and retain staff? It's a minor miracle that a bigger proportion of NHS staff aren't on sick leave due to stress and depression. NHS staff just take a deep breath and get on with stuff, putting their own feelings aside. Being married to one, I know there has to be an outlet somewhere down the line, and I know the toll it can take on people (mercifully, not my wife as it happens, but I hear stories).
 
You'll have to explain In layman's terms, If you want me to understand. At the moment It feels like you're writing lots of stuff that's not enforcing your argument - the expression "bullshit baffles brains" comes to mind.

Regarding disposable Income - Are you saying that putting more money In to the NHS won't help? Or are you saying something else?

From what I understand the graph you posted was made by a private company that obviously has private health care In It's best Interest and more Importantly has been proven to be a load of tosh. You come across as an Intelligent guy, so I'd be very surprised If you didn't know the graph was worthless. This makes me wonder what your motives for defending the Torries are? I seriously doubt It's for the good of the people.

I believe a step In the right direction would be to tackle tax avoidance by the rich. if all that lost money went Into the NHS, It would reduce suffering and save lives - Link. How could It not?

The Nuffield Institute is a respected health thinktank that has nothing whatsoever to do (to the best of my knowledge) with the private hospital.

The obvious implication of the post I was quoting was that all disposable income should be taken by the state and spent on the NHS. I don't think that's a healthy way to proceed, possibly on a moral, and certainly on an economic basis - not least because, at least to some extent, you do need a healthy economy to have decent public services - unless you want to go full Soviet.

The point about this thread was supposed to be how excellent it was that some familiar names were trying to take Hunt to court according the usual, long-running (first time I bumped into it was in 1999 when I worked for, er, Frank Dobson) and self-indulgent meme that the Tories/neolib cabal want to privatise the NHS/run it down to sell it off to their friends. Apart from the deeply contradictory and ironic nature of this in relation to the specifics of the action concerned, it's not excellent. It's a self-indulgent distraction.

Jack seems to agree with me that the NHS is short of money - to put it mildly - but is apparently incapable of digesting the straightforward graph I posted above. Look at the gap between the projections and the spending commitments in the manifestos please. Now convince me (or yourselves, or anyone) that this legal action is where the central problem lies.If any political party wants to get its shit together on the NHS, it should do the maths and be transparent about it. Maybe that would make people (especially people like me) more likely to vote for it.

We are trying to at least shore things up by introducing ACOs such that there is a better demand management relationship between the gatekeeper function (vested in GPs) and the treatment function (vested in providers). To give you an example, I strongly suspect at least one third of all GP referrals to first outpatient appointments are clinically pointless. That is a huge amount of pointless work. The system as currently constituted relies on multiple levels of referral, diagnosis and treatment which are hugely wasteful, hugely stressful for patients, and more often than not result in them being treated, too late, as acute inpatients when they need not have been.

Indeed. But the obfuscation, the deliberate underfunding, the endless re-structures, the wry 'enigmatic and exceptionally annoying' smirk on the face of J. Hunt etc., make such a debate almost inaccessible to mere mortals.

The original concept and funding mechanism for the NHS was very simple and seemingly transparent. The current arrangements aren't. This fuels suspicion, especially in the context of the Tory record of cuts, 'downsizing ' the State and flogging everything in sight. 'We haven't got any money' just will not do..

Mull

The current arrangements are a significant part of the problem - precisely as I said above. We are living within a legal framework which everyone hates; and we are doing our damnedest to ignore it. ACOs are the biggest example yet of trying to ignore it, and as I said clearly above one irony is that this action relies on that legal framework (that would be Andrew Lansley's framework - s.118 of Part 3 of the 2012 Act, to be precise) in an attempt to subvert them.

I am not simply saying 'we haven't got any money' Mull, I am saying (a) that the apparently simple concept and funding mechanism (if we want them to survive, which incidentally I do) needs a new and more transparent settlement whereby the electorate recognise that the public services they want need a different settlement -quite possibly based on a greater contribution from themselves, and (b) that none of the three parties on the basis of their most recent manifestos are prepared to recognise that, because it is politically unpalatable.
 
Tim, I appreciated the graph as I've asked you at least once in the past to say how big you think the funding gap really is (and what increase in the basic rate of income tax, say, would be needed to close it). Upthread I asked you a few questions about the chart that you may have missed:

Tim, thanks that's an excellent chart.

I'll look into the background to it later, but to save time, could you explain the difference between the projection based on the existing rate of increase in cost/demand and the projection based on long term growth? Does the latter try to take into account new treatments coming on-stream and, if so, how speculative is it? And why is the OBR projection higher than any of the others?

Finally, any idea why Labour's spending commitment flattens and declines slightly in later years? I would expect it to at least track the GDP based projection as it's essentially based on funding the NHS from greater taxation.

The projections matter because, depending on which one we believe, we're looking at a funding gap of between 2 and 20 billion (taking Labour's manifesto as the reference). By way of comparison, the total revenue budget is about £720 billion.

Also, if I understand you correctly, ACOs are a way of finessing the bureaucracy associated with the internal markets within the NHS. Does that mean that the last few decades of trying to impose an ideologically market-based model on the inner workings of the NHS have been a costly waste of time?
 
Tim, I appreciated the graph as I've asked you at least once in the past to say how big you think the funding gap really is (and what increase in the basic rate of income tax, say, would be needed to close it). Upthread I asked you a few questions about the chart that you may have missed:



The projections matter because, depending on which one we believe, we're looking at a funding gap of between 2 and 20 billion (taking Labour's manifesto as the reference). By way of comparison, the total revenue budget is about £720 billion.

Also, if I understand you correctly, ACOs are a way of finessing the bureaucracy associated with the internal markets within the NHS. Does that mean that the last few decades of trying to impose an ideologically market-based model on the inner workings of the NHS have been a costly waste of time?

Apologies that I missed your post.

From memory, the total revenue budget for the NHS across the UK is around £140bn pa (give or take), not £720bn. Perhaps you're talking cumulatively over the period?

A costly waste of time? I'm not sure. We don't have a counterfactual. Also, perhaps a bit like socialism, we never really tried it wholeheartedly - or at least without having to make hefty adaptive changes to it. Those experiments, while not wholly 'ideological' were certainly based on a technocratic view of 'incentives'. The idea had a lot to do with 'public interest' theories of Government in the 70s and people like Donald Light/RAND.

There were several starting points involved. One was that the 'producers' (let's caricature and say 'hospitals' in this case), wilfully or not, systematically distorted the actual cost of anything in their own interests, but at the same time were the only people who actually knew what those costs were. This is a specifically economic manifestation of the 'asymmetry of information' around medicine - broadly that doctors know more about how to do it than the rest of us. What was apparently 'needed' was a different layer of 'commissioners' who would plan and pay for services.

The second starting point was best illustrated; and I seem to remember actually was illustrated; through comparison with Soviet socio-economics. Unless there is some kind of quasi-market relationship between supply and demand, you tend to end up with immense and wasteful distortions, and an equally immense bureaucracy trying to manage them.

One point, however, about this and the NHS is that markets have exits and failures. If firms can't compete they go out of business. But, while there is a theoretical regime for that in Lansley's Act, we are here to provide a service. We don't, can't and would not want to close a hospital because it is somehow 'unprofitable' - because we have a duty to provide a service to its population.

A further point about markets (which is why they don't even work at least some of the time in the private sector) is that they require transparency around information and prices. Pursuing this idea of incentivisation, this is why we tried, beginning in the early 2000s, to introduce a 'tariff' regime and create a virtuous circle, whereby the money followed the patient, the patient could choose where they went for their treatment (that's a whole other thread...), and providers would be paid by commissioners of that treatment according to an agreed system of 'prices'; which predictably was horrendously complicated. Lansley tried to make a clockwork mechanism of this in his Act, which legally requires the NHS to set a tariff and sets out (in quite a detailed way) how they should do it.

The reason why the private providers of NHS treatment (and they are not a very happy bunch of people right now) can't stand ACOs - to the extent that they commissioned the very same legal opinion that this action is based on - is that they are not just an attempt to 'finesse' this framework; they represent a wholesale rejection of it in practice.

The ACOs represent the NHS and the wonks towards the top of it finally losing patience with these market experiments. The uppermost of those wonks is, of course, Simon Stevens - who was Alan Milburn's special adviser when we were pushing these market experiments as hard as we could in the mid 2000s. It was certainly much easier to indulge in those market theories when we had money coming out of our ears at that time. But as any good wonk, and certainly any good economist knows, when the facts (and the money) change, you'd better be prepared to change your mind.
 
Thanks Tim. For clarity £720 billion is, I believe, total UK revenue expenditure - not just Health related. I mentioned it because people get scared by big numbers in this type of discussion, which may or may not be a good thing.

My immediate reaction is we're trying to create incentives of the wrong kind in the wrong places. It might sound idealistic but I'd like to see far more emphasis on the value of public service as a motivation in its own right. I suspect that decades of trying to apply market-based models to interactions that are fundamentally different is ultimately going to corrode the very thing we're supposed to be trying to preserve.

Anyway, I'll sleep on it and write more if I can think of anything sensible to say.
 
Which, Drood, is sort of what I've been trying to articulate all along and about all public services. You did it so much better. Sadly, my Party Political take on it is that most, if not all Tories ( and a few non Tories) are congenitally, idealogically and intellectually incapable of grasping the concept of 'public service as a motive in it's own right'. I won't post it yet again.. but this blind spot was beautifully illustrated by the Monty Python 'Charity Donation' sketch. ' Are you sure you've got this right? Seems to me I'm a pound down on the whole deal..'
 
You’re right to adopt a party political line on this Mull. It’s ridiculous to argue for an equivalence between the different parties’ approach to the NHS and disingenuous to base that argument on the figures from their manifestos: manifestos are a special kind of propaganda, and Labour had a job to do WRT to numbers.

IMO care, including medical and social care, is going to be the defining political issue of the next couple of decades. It’s obvious even to the brighter Tories that there is a crisis and that the issue can’t be ducked, which I guess is why they took a gamble with it in their manifesto. Their disastrous social care gambit offered a clear indication of how they intend to deal with the crisis: the individualisation of risk and the creation of new markets – i.e. exactly the same tired bullsh*t that brought us here begin with. The broader agenda driving this can certainly be called privatisation: just because the Tories understand that the abolition of the NHS is not politically realistic in the short to medium term doesn’t mean that that ideal isn’t guiding key decisions. (Their friends in the IMF keep up a very useful background noise in this regard, incidentally: they certainly came through today https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/privatised-nhs-and-tax-rises-forecast-by-imf-h969qgjmb)
 
When the NHS was started in 1948 by Clement Attlee and Nye Bevan, national debt was 200% of GDP. In 2016 it was 88.3%.

To say that no political party of any persuasion will fully fund the NHS is nonsense and a deliberate political statement. A political party could if they had the will.

Given that your job appears to involve spinning Tim, I wouldn't expect any less.

Oh yeah, Jeremy Hunt co-authored a book calling for the NHS to be replaced with private insurance, according to The Independent: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...et-replacement-direct-democracy-a6865306.html

He seems to be doing everything possible to achieve this, while deliberately letting the NHS and patients suffer though lack of public investment.

Jack
 
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Tim, i’m late to this and simply don’t have the time to go over the points made. I was however under the impression that the NHS was one of the most financially efficient health services in the world.

Was that the case? If so, how is that efficiency improved by taking some of the funding and giving it to wealthy shareholders in the private sector?

It appears, at first glance, to be little more than a deliberate tactic to actually make the whole ideal of a state run health service genuinely unaffordable in the future.

I for one would be happy to contribute more to both health services and pension services when efficiently run by the state. I am not happy to be forced to do so in order to line another wealthy investor’s pockets.
 
The obvious implication of the post I was quoting was that all disposable income should be taken by the state and spent on the NHS. I don't think that's a healthy way to proceed, possibly on a moral, and certainly on an economic basis - not least because, at least to some extent, you do need a healthy economy to have decent public services - unless you want to go full Soviet.

Well this just about says It all to me. You took what I said and added some extra words to twist what I was saying. You know what I was Implying, and taking everyone's disposable income wasn't It.

Also, I don't trust graphs. They can be manipulated and so can the people who make them. I've been on this planet long enough to know that the world Is overflowing with bullshit, so I'm now a lot more careful about who I trust and what I believe. Your post above proved to me that you're not to be trusted, so I will take anything you say with a pinch of salt.
 
The unedifying sight on C4 News now, of a junior doctor spelling out the dreadful failure of Jeremy Hunt to competently meet demand for NHS services vs the appalling Troll for U.S Republicans Overseas (now shilling for some right wing think tank), Kate Andrews telling us how to run the NHS. Her breathtaking hypocrisy would be comical if the situation wasn’t so serious.
 
Indeed. Pretty clear the Tories have now totally lost control of the NHS. The damage they are doing to the UK at present with this and their Brexit debacle is entirely without precident. Hunt was as shifty as ever, constant looking down to the left when lying/bullshitting/evading (apparently a good ‘tell’). Just horrible people in a horrible backwards-looking trough-feeding party.
 
May is making a grimly embarrassing performance on Marr just now- having to front her health minister’s grotesque failures in running the NHS. The Tories took a shotgun to NHS England in 2010 and have come back to blow the windows out in time for a brutal winter. They will hand it, as the biggest dripping roast in public ownership, to their disaster capitalist friends when they’ve finally bled it to death.
 
This Isn't the only person to wait literely hours, for an ambulance, whilst having a heart attack - LINK

A few months ago, poor uncle John (my girlfriends uncle) had to wait hours too and also died.
 


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