Greg
2t5b
pollution of the water table?
Spending review 2013
- Thread starter Tony L
- Start date
darrylfunk
Banned
if you don't know the risks you are obviously happy with your head in the sand.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20595228
i got millions of hits on google when reading up on it a few years ago,
Remember fracking was cancelled in the u.k. Until lobbying groups from private companies recently twisted the government arms again...
Mescalito
pfm Member
It was not cancelled. It was put on hold. I seem to recall that an independant enquiry civing it a clean bill of heath might have fad something to do with it being allowed to proceed as well.
But of course, that doesn't give the nimbies, pinkos & ecomentalists anything to whinge about, so we had better conjure up a right wing conspiracy toot sweet, eh?
Chris
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
There could be enough shale gas below northern England to satisfy domestic demand for 40 years.
In America gas prices have already fallen by one third as they exploit the process. In the UK the poorest pay almost twice as much (%age wise) of their income on domestic fuel as the better off .
Fracking has been suspended in the UK since after 2 minor earth tremors near Blackpool. These took place further below the surface than coal extraction, which given the caution today our coal industry would never have been developed.
The biggest problems are the techolnogical and geological differences between here and the US and we are right to be cautious, but further exploration is surely worth considering.
In America gas prices have already fallen by one third as they exploit the process. In the UK the poorest pay almost twice as much (%age wise) of their income on domestic fuel as the better off .
Fracking has been suspended in the UK since after 2 minor earth tremors near Blackpool. These took place further below the surface than coal extraction, which given the caution today our coal industry would never have been developed.
The biggest problems are the techolnogical and geological differences between here and the US and we are right to be cautious, but further exploration is surely worth considering.
Mullardman
Moderately extreme...
You see there you go again Chris. Where did I EVER say I wanted inefficient and unproductive participation?
1. Your figures for workforces are pure fantasy.
2. It is not a simple trade off. Employment matters. That's the trouble with you blue rinse righties. You only see the bottom line.
OK. I'll give you that one.. It's proven to blahh blahh. but, it is not yet proven in the UK.
There is no such thing nowadays as an 'average' coal mine, but that is a diversionary tactic on your part anyway.
I see no reason why a coal mine, a gasworks and a power station cannot be tidily placed on a single site. You might need a bit of transport to take away other valuable products from the coal 'cracking' operation.
FFS Chris, you're not still preaching the 'Private = efficient/Public = inefficient myth are you?
The fundamental difference between you and me is that we disagree on the value of collective v individual action.
You have faith only in individual action.
You claim, that because I have left wing views, I believe only in collective action.
But you are wrong.
I believe that for society and the economy to function, we need both.
Mull
Time Audio
Trade: Time Audio
Came across this talking about council funding:
http://t.money.uk.msn.com/news/warning-over-council-funding-cuts
http://t.money.uk.msn.com/news/warning-over-council-funding-cuts
Mescalito
pfm Member
Darryl,
I work in the industry. Until we flogged it to one of the big boys, I was in charge of a company of specialist risk assessment consultants. So I know, and more importantly, actually understand the risks one hell of a lot better than someone who uses Monbiot or Pilger as his primary source.
Chris
Mescalito
pfm Member
They were plucked out of the air. Guilty as charged. However, physically hacking rocks out of the ground in a deep mine is always going to be vastly morec labour intensive than pressing a button to activate an hydraulic pump or open a valve actuator.
And yes, employment does matter, but never at the cost of employing deliberately inefficient methods & processes simply to give employment to more people.
Fraccing has been going on in and around the UK mainland for decades. At Whych farm it has been routinely employed since 1979 with no incidents. In the nortgh sea it is entirely routine.
There are 2 ways of getting coal out of the ground. Deep mines & open cast. Both produce vast amounts of waste and/or bloody great holes in the ground. This cannot be disputed.
I agree that a private/public sector mix is imperative, but the mix has been badly skewed for the last 70 years. 20 public/80 private would be about right. That would get all those public sector leeches actually helping to creat some wealth
Chris
darrylfunk
Banned
if you work in the industry how come you said there are no problems with fracking?
fracking as used in modern systems is not used in tiny places like the uk normally.
primarily because it pollutes and is dangerous.
those are the facts i'm afraid.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
"I used to be in charge of people who knew about risks of something in a related field" is a good example of Argument from Authority.
Mescalito
pfm Member
Not arelated field, Mathew. Precisely that field. Oil & Gas production. And we carried out a lot of risk assessments on the fraccing process. We have our own in-house geologists, & maintain as consultants some of the most respected geologists/petroleum engineers in the world.
Chris
Mescalito
pfm Member
It has been in continuos use in mainlang UK since 1979 with not one incident.
I have no axe to grind re the HSE aspects of fraccing. But I do know and have studied a lot of independant research and subsequent reports which so any risks to both water table and property to be very, very small.
And you have read a few things on the internet? That's much more impressive.
Go and do a search on MMR vaccine & autism. There are 100,000s of thousands of articles saying there is a link. The fact that these are arrant garbage does not come into it.
If you are going to do research, do it properly, with a critical and sceptical mindset.
Go and read up on the processes used & the theory behind them. Not of some dingbat's website, but from academic sources.
Then, if you have actually understood what you have read, make an informed comment.
Otherwise, you are just jerking your knees. You are posting ill informed opinion that is of absolute zero value.
It has EXACTLY the same status & value as someone claiming audio cables can make a night & day difference. Arrant nonesense.
Chris
pure sound
Trade: manufacturer/distributor
Out of interest, why does it have to be done with fresh water? And if it does, are the supplies of fresh water that are currently available sufficient to do it on a large scale?
Greg
2t5b
"we" being who, Chris?
Mescalito
pfm Member
Mescalito
pfm Member
Usually because a supply of seawateer is not handy. Offshore, seawater is used.
Each well will use about 2 olympic swimming pool's worth every year.
Chris
gassor
There may be more posts after this.
They could change their name to the Buccaneering group if fracking gets the go ahead on a wide scale.
As the jury is still out on whether it can be safely applied in the UK it seems strange that we have so many 'experts' on here that know the answers already. I blame the tabloids.
matthewr
spɹɐʍʞɔɐq spɹoɔǝɹ ɹnoʎ sʎɐld
Meanwhile back on topic...
Where by "policy and political elite" he means Mick
Is high unemployment, austerity and stagnation the new normal?
Krugman said:
Where by "policy and political elite" he means Mick
Is high unemployment, austerity and stagnation the new normal?
russel
./_dazed_and_confused
I agree that a private/public sector mix is imperative, but the mix has been badly skewed for the last 70 years. 20 public/80 private would be about right. That would get all those public sector leeches actually helping to creat some wealth
Chris
Where did the 20% figure come from?, why not a figure like the Nordics?. Here is that table again of GDP per head of population to show they are ahead of small government USA.
1 Luxembourg 107,206 2012
2 Qatar 99,731 2012
3 Norway 99,462 2012
4 Switzerland79,033 2012
5 Australia 67,723 2012
6 UAE 64,840 2012
7 Denmark 56,202 2012
8 Sweden 55,158 2012
9 Canada 52,232 2012
10 Singapore 51,162 2012
11 USA 49,922 2012
Perhaps this time, presented with evidence that shows your theory is incorrect, like Keynes, you will change your mind. Oops its Keynes that changed his mind when the facts changed and you are a free market fundamentalist, so no chance.
I'm afraid the countries you quote might be able to afford big public sectors because of luck rather than domestic political arrangements.
Which is not to say that the way GDP in the USA is distributed - leading to very poor helath outcomes, crappy infrastructure etc - should make many American taxpayers question what kind of system they are supporting. There seems very little in it for the ordinary Joe...
Re your table, we really need to ask what is driving the figures. And some countries do not in fact have very large public sectors as a percentage of population or GDP:
Luxembourg - so small as to be statistically insignificant. It wealth derives from being positively hosed down with EU taxpayer cash. It doesn't actually do or produce very much else.
Qatar - oil
Norway - oil. The same amount of oil as the UK to share among five million people. Average working week is 27 hours.
Switzerland - looking after other people's money, quite a lot of manufacturing and a tiny public sector
Australia - minerals and a small public sector
UAE - oil, most work done by non-nationals and state sinecures for locals supported by oil.
Sweden and Denmark - suffering deep cuts to public sector as tax base cannot sustain it, but for decades models to support your argument.
Canada - minerals and other natural resources out of all proportion to population and not a particularly large public sector anyway
Singapore - like Switzerland
Peter