Speakers for classical music

[Michael J]

@DV,

Headroom? Agreed, but any worthwhile amplifier will deliver an extra couple or few dB for peaks above the RMS rating anyway, so that's already available - or are they 45W PMPO (however that is being defined today) ?

High power is no guarantee of low output impedance. Also conversely, low power does not necessarily mean high output impedance.

And why have you now added another 5dB to the required level?

Do you know how large the room is? Maybe the listener can't sensibly get 10 feet away from the speakers without being rammed up hard against a wall (not usually the best place to be). Or maybe they don't want to sit far away, perhaps they enjoy nearfield.

Inverse square is not directly applicable. You are not in an anechoic environment. Try again with room gain.

Isn't it about time you told us how many kW your amps can shove through 1ohm?

Cheers.

 

[Paul L]

What was the OPs system since the first few replies were like going back in time to 80s magazine replies.

Watts without current delivery is insuffucient by the way isn't it? Many popular brands will take your money for their shiny cases without delivering, even that revered in many threads on here unless you part with an awful lot of sheckles for their bigger stuff.

 

[sean99]

Another option might be to add a powered sub ala REL. That means not taxing your 45w amp any more and keeping your current stand mount speakers. Integration is tricky, but not impossible. I've been running a REL strata with bookshelf speakers for nearly 10 years and I haven't got any urge to upgrade. Due to space constraints the REL is used as a speaker stand for my right hand speaker (with some blocks of wood to even out the height).

 

[sonddek]

1500 quid, used.
Small boxes.
Surprisingly deep bass.
87dB/W

Easy: Totem Model One.

 

[Darth Vader]

@DV,

Isn't it about time you told us how many kW your amps can shove through 1ohm?

Cheers.

No! I have already posted that many times as you are already aware.

But I have proven my calculations that I made more than 40 years ago are supported in practice.

I only want to pass that information on so others who have ears to hear will listen and benefit.

Cheers,

DV

 

[Darth Vader]

1500 quid, used.
Small boxes.
Surprisingly deep bass.
87dB/W

Easy: Totem Model One.

You do realise that 87dBWm sensitivity needs 1000W amps rather than 45W............ for the same 110dB SPL peak.

Thats the trade off with small low sensitivity speakers vs big sensitive speakers.

Cheers,


DV

 

[sonddek]

You do realise that 87dBWm sensitivity needs 1000W amps rather than 45W............ for the same 110dB SPL peak.

Thats the trade off with small low sensitivity speakers vs big sensitive speakers.

The OP asked for 'scale' and 'depth', not 110dB.

 

[Darth Vader]

What was the OPs system since the first few replies were like going back in time to 80s magazine replies.

Watts without current delivery is insuffucient by the way isn't it? Many popular brands will take your money for their shiny cases without delivering, even that revered in many threads on here unless you part with an awful lot of sheckles for their bigger stuff.

Yes absolutely and thats where Naim scored as their design (borrowed and modded) could deliver a lot of current. Ditto NAD but at a much lower price point and quality.

Thats why a low impedance output amp is important. How many amplifiers today are happy to deliver into say a 2 Ohm load? You are up there with the big boys like Krell, Bryston etc. Also the low impedance also provides very good damping of speaker back EMF.

Cheers,

DV

 

[Darth Vader]

The OP asked for 'scale' and 'depth', not 110dB.

Unfortunately thats what you need to supply to get that scale. Its the dynamics.

I keep repeating myself but we use acoustic guitars and a piano at home as our 'benchmark'. Thats what our HiFi has to deliver and we are very close.

If you are anywhere near the SE coast you are welcome to visit and listen. However it does really depend on whether you are a frequent concert goer or just a CD/vinyl/radio listener as the objectives will be different. We do or should I say have played musical instruments and go to many live performances whether opera, ballet, classical (serious) music, Jazz (all genres), rock, pop (last was 'we will rock you') etc etc. So thats the experience that we at home want to reproduce.

However we still enjoy listening to our Pure digital radio in the kitchen.

Cheers,

DV

 

[Darth Vader]

wow, that takes me straight back to my Tech College days..Thanks Darth....

Must drink less..much less wine..

For most of my life I have made sure that I do not have too much blood in my alcohol stream...........

That way I seem to have missed out on all those tummy bugs that my peers got when we travelled the planet on business (jolly) trips.

Cheers,

DV

Scientist by training and ex teech/lecturer (I nearly misspelt that last word).

 

[zener]

at what distance???? that number has no relevance to recorded music , which is compressed and usually limited to 60dB ish dynamic range. You really wouldnt want to listen to a full dynamic range in a domestic enviroment , it would piss your neighbours off and scare your cat/dog out of the house forever

 

[Darth Vader]

DV, Could you perhaps point out some sources to those of us who don't know about the science of acoustics? What's confusing me is that I realize that an orchestra will reach 110dB or more peaks in a concert hall, but I can't understand why such levels would be necessary to create an approximation of the concert hall experience at home.

I am drawing on my knowledge, experience and training over the years to provide a high-level summary.

If you are interested what you could do is google on 'hearing aids for musicians' as the hearing aid people have done loads of research to help musicians who have damaged hearing through playing in orchestras.

I damage mine playing in a loud band.

Cheers,

DV

 

[Darth Vader]

at what distance???? that number has no relevance to recorded music , which is compressed and usually limited to 60dB ish dynamic range. You really wouldnt want to listen to a full dynamic range in a domestic enviroment , it would piss your neighbours off and scare your cat/dog out of the house forever

No it doesn't Jon.

I have a cheapo Tandy SPL meter. Its not lab quality but does give me some qualitative input.

With my dynamic system it actually sounds very loud but the average SPL as read on the Tandy is lower than when I had/used the Avondaled 135s. I can actually talk to someone whist listening at realistic SPL unlike said 135s. I put this down to the fact that the dynamic transients are correctly handled with a very fast rise time whilst the A135s just couldn't cope with my loudspeakers.

There is less air pressure that comes out of the woofers but the slams like a bass drum etc are short fast and sharp and not heavy and leaden.

The concrete floor does shake with deep organ and the bass drum hits me in the gut with power but the windows do not shake. Far different from car radios and their thump thump thump.......

Check up on the science Jon as I believe you work in a technical role. I have only put theory into practice and for me it has worked.

I keep coming back to my V12 6L Jag vs my wifes 1.4 Hatch. One is so effortless to drive.........

The OP wanted the scale but I wanted that and more and am now so very close that I am amazed. I would never have thought that it was possible technically.

Cheers,

DV

 

[Blzebub]

If I want my system to reproduce the orchestral scale and depth of classical music, does that mean I should only be looking for "big" speakers??

I have a truly fabulous pair of small standmounts made by Chario that have a rich & deep sound that I love, but I can't help thinking I am missing out on something ...

The ability to also work with Led Zeppelin would be a bonus, but I listen to classical about 95% of the time, so that's my priority.

When you find speakers which can play classical music, you will realise that rock is no problem.

 

[sonddek]

To me 'scale' does not mean SPL. Scale is conveyed by separation, bass extension, and 'air'. I think you can hear scale at low volumes, and therefore don't need 110 dB to convey it. You can often hear the scale of quiet distant thunder.

 

[Mullardman]

Good point.

One word of caution I'd chuck in concerns babies and bathwater. Some years ago, I almost changed my beloved Rogers for a beautiful pair of Cura floorstanders, which were available to me ex-dem. They did deeper more textured bass than my Rogers and generally seemed to have a 'bigger' sound.
However, on a proper comparison, they completely lost it with something like Ashkenazy playing Mozart piano stuff. Couldn't keep up at all and were revealed as quite crude and unsubtle with classical.

When I worked for Audio Ex, we sold Shahinians. It was intriguing how many people paired them with NAIM kit.

I too found their version of sound staging somewhat difficult to accept.

Also, whether you actually like it or not, play a bit of Brass Band music through any prospective speaker purchase. If they can do that, they can do anything from the P.O.V. of reproducing tone and instrumental 'power'. Still need to check out the ability to remain un-flustered on things like piano though..

Mull

 

[Simonms]

From science to psychology-a distant thunder storm is not music but an experience having more to it however near or far it is that conveys a mathematical and dynamic response from the experiencer-sometimes music gets close to this certainly with live classical music where the experience has these added dimensions of the unknown and can be a subliminal thing-never heard this achieved through a hifi but as DV states by comparison with actual instruments you can get close.

Heard some Diaphasons playing organ music with 559's (bridged) and was utterly stunned-well in fact I felt nothing, thought nothing analysis stopped.

Well actually I was jealous...after the music ended.

Some find beauty in smallness like a butterfly but others find the sublime feeling of standing right on the edge of a cliff more real but feelings shift and change like every thing else-baffling....the question is where do you stop.

Si

 

[ter]

Hi,

Well you could try a set of Shahinian Arc's or Obs'.

Failing that get a pair of Linn Isobariks.

If that does not move you nothing will

Cheers

John

Are you kidding? A pair of Linn Isobariks.???!! I once went and listened repeated for long periods various Naim set up combination on classical and jazz.. A friend was interested in this type of equipment. Then he decided with Naim application: listened to Linn Isobarils playing amongst other things a fair stretch of Organ music........ Using a magnificent demonstration disc of the organist Piet Kee. I have to admit I can still remember the absolute sense of stress I felt listening to repeat sections of it., I wanted to literally put an axe through the Isobariks, especially an 8minutes 2 second track of Mendelssohn organ music , in particular. That's how vividly bad the reproduction 'was'. They are a lumbering lazy pig of a speaker. Though I am not a fancier of Naim, their speakers besides those Isobariks....were streets ahead. Frankly though, I would not entertain any from either brand.
My unvarnished opinion.

 

[spamnap]

I would second Eyebroughty's suggestion for Linn Isobariks, maybe not the most accurate speakers but if you want big scale sound for orchestra I think they sound awesome.

 

[ter]

When you find speakers which can play classical music, you will realise that rock is no problem.

I differ on that point. Rock music likes various humps in its frequency range to give the best impression. Classical............flat response all the way. Like comparing a Quad Electrostatic with a set of JBL's head bangers.