Cav
pfm Member
Is there such a thing?
So. Assisted Suicide. Good or Bad idea?
- Thread starter merlin
- Start date
paulfromcamden
Baffled
It's not just about pain management (if it can be achieved) - as @Somafunk so clearly explained it's about dignity and quality of life.
Having recently lost my Mum to Motor Neurone Disease, and having watched her become slowly paralysed to the point where she had very little movement beyond her fingers and a few hints of facial expressions, seeing her require 24 hour care to be washed, dressed, even as something as basic as use a bedpan... I can't help but see myself in her position and wonder what i would want.
My Mum lost a lot of her speech and was mostly left with just vowels so could be very hard to understand. But she was still sharp as a pin, understood exactly what was happening and was putting her affairs in order right up to the week she passed.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Prior to retirement I had ready access to a range of potentially lethal drugs. I always maintained that had I received a terminal diagnosis that would have resulted in a drawn out, painful and undignified death, I would simply, at a time and place of my own choosing, ingest enough benzodiazepine to induce a coma and depress my respiratory system to the extent I would have suffocated. I am of the firm belief that the ultimate arbiter of a persons’ life is the person themselves
The biggest impediment however is those who feel they have become a burden, and who would opt, unnecessarily, to end their lives. Nevertheless, this is something that can be overcome if the determination exists. Of course, no system of checks and balances will ever be 100% watertight, but weighed against the fact that many are currently condemned to long, painful deaths, tips it for me.
The biggest impediment however is those who feel they have become a burden, and who would opt, unnecessarily, to end their lives. Nevertheless, this is something that can be overcome if the determination exists. Of course, no system of checks and balances will ever be 100% watertight, but weighed against the fact that many are currently condemned to long, painful deaths, tips it for me.
hifinutt
hifinutt
brilliant point raga , and sums up one of the problems
hifinutt
hifinutt
The biggest impediment however is those who feel they have become a burden, and who would opt, unnecessarily, to end their lives. Nevertheless, this is something that can be overcome if the determination exists. Of course, no system of checks and balances will ever be 100% watertight, but weighed against the fact that many are currently condemned to long, painful deaths, tips it for me.
Yes finegan , you make such a good point . many elderly seeing their families burdened and suffereing with their care may well feel obligated to take this route
Currently though I would certainly be thinking of Zurich if i was diagnosed with MND , as i mentioned a colleague at work was there perfectly normal one day and the next we heard she had gone to Zurich after this occured . It was quite a shock really . I must say i wouldnt want anyone prosecuted for coming with me which i think seems to be the case at the moment .
very tricky
Yes finegan , you make such a good point . many elderly seeing their families burdened and suffereing with their care may well feel obligated to take this route
Currently though I would certainly be thinking of Zurich if i was diagnosed with MND , as i mentioned a colleague at work was there perfectly normal one day and the next we heard she had gone to Zurich after this occured . It was quite a shock really . I must say i wouldnt want anyone prosecuted for coming with me which i think seems to be the case at the moment .
very tricky
gez
pfm Member
My father certainly didn't "not suffer" during the last months of his life. Despite all the drugs they were able to give him it was patently obvious he was in constant pain. My mother had to watch him suffering every day, praying it would end.
Cav
pfm Member
According to CPS, in the last 13 years, most investigations of assisted suicide do not lead to prosecutions and there have been only 4 convictions. They do not say whether these were trips to Dignitas, but I suspect they were not.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Because this:
Just because your personal experience of end of life care was good, don't assume the same will happen for everybody. Some conditions will end nastily, despite the best efforts of clinicians, and there was a piece on R4 Today programme this morning from the chair of the board of trustees of a hospice, saying that the whole hospice system is massively underfunded and under pressure, and people are competing for places.
If (heaven forbid) Mrs P-T found herself in a situation where she wanted to end things (she's fine, this is hypothetical) we'd definitely do Dignitas, and I'd be with her. And if I got arrested when I got back, so be it. I'd have my day in court and defy any judge or jury to convict me.
hifinutt
hifinutt
one massive problem with ensuring diginity at the end is many many folks choose to die at home which is wonderful . However at night if you ask how many community nurses are on duty in your district you would be utterly shocked . probably less than the fingers on one hand in a big city , if they are inundated by blocked catheters and other emergencys Dad in agony with pain may have to wait a few hours even if they are on a syringe driver [ this gives continous medication like morphine or sedatives over 24 hours in a pump]
Also many areas have built HUGE housing estates and tower blocks and not increased the amount of community staff to cope with it . So if you have 3 folks screaming in agony as they need more morphine in their syringe driver or additional meds then the nurses or Drs may not have capacity to get to them all within a timely fashion . this is the reality of training few nurses and paying them peanuts and now with car insurance and petrol through the roof they cant get enough staff to cope with demand of vacancies
There is of course Marie curie night sitters but often these are Health care assistants who cannot adminster injections etc.
Also many areas have built HUGE housing estates and tower blocks and not increased the amount of community staff to cope with it . So if you have 3 folks screaming in agony as they need more morphine in their syringe driver or additional meds then the nurses or Drs may not have capacity to get to them all within a timely fashion . this is the reality of training few nurses and paying them peanuts and now with car insurance and petrol through the roof they cant get enough staff to cope with demand of vacancies
There is of course Marie curie night sitters but often these are Health care assistants who cannot adminster injections etc.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
FWIW when Mum's breathing finally failed and she was taken into hospital it was all over within a few hours. She passed with my Dad, who she adored, by her side holding her hand. I can't say it was a blessing but it's at least some comfort.
Copperjacket
pfm Member
One of the underlying issues here is that in the presumably litigation conscious NHS, adequate pain control for the terminally ill is no longer provided. As a result there is undoubtedly a fairly significant level of unnecessary suffering experienced by those patients.
Ponty
pfm Member
I’m completely in favour. A friends uncle lived in Geneva. He was in his 90’s, in great health but then had serious issues, was really struggling and decided he’d had enough. Off to a clinic, family all around him drinking Veuve Clicquot, then goodnight all. No pain, no suffering, a peaceful end to a wonderful life. As it should be IMHO.
hifinutt
hifinutt
Gosh Copper ... ABSOLUTELY NOT , adequate pain control is TOP priority ,whatever gave you that idea !!!
https://www.goldstandardsframework.org.uk/preparing-for-the-end-of-life-information-for-carers
Copperjacket
pfm Member
Unfortunately on an admittedly brief look at your link, I can’t see anything relevant there.
My comments are based on my observation and experience with terminally ill friends and family where the comment from the nursing staff on more than one occasion was to the effect “ sorry we can’t give you any more pain relief as we have given you all we are allowed to…”
TheDecameron
Unicorns fart glitter.
Certainly the historic practice of doubling the dose of morphine/diamorphine in terminally ill patients until pain control was achieved even if that hastened death, went following Shipman or before. It seems an entirely rational approach to me as a potential patient. The situation at Gosport Memorial Hospital, now the subject of a police murder inquiry appeared somewhat different. In many of the cases death wasn’t imminent (until they were put on opioid infusions that is).
hifinutt
hifinutt
well i couldnt find a way to link it with the gold standards framework video sadly , but it just gives the flavour of what GSF is about
And yes it can be incredibly frustrating in hospitals when they say they cant give any more pain killers , earlier this year i spent many days visiting a friend in hospital and i got extremely agitated when the guy was in pain ... he wasnt categorized as terminal but the only way he got any painkillers was because i was a total pain in the arse about it and nagged until they put a drip in and gave him something
in hospitals so often their focus is `cure ` and its jolly hard to get out of that mindset when someone has terminal cancer or terminal heart failure or something . And even in one of Europes biggest hospitals costing billions i found it hard to get a palliative care person to see my friend , fortunately i have friends in that field and they were incredibly supportive
Copperjacket
pfm Member
Unfortunately you are in essence confirming my statement.