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SME 3009 cartridge advice

kwmason

kwmason

Won Ton On
I've been without a system for over a year now due to house renovation. For years i've loved the classic Well-tempered/Dynavector/Shahinian set up with a few deviations along the way but that is all sadly long gone now.

I've just acquired a Creek Destiny, and i have a TD124 and SME3009 series II improved needing setting up. i have a couple of options in front of me

1 - stick with the TD124/SME 3009 but i doubt the cartridges i have are suitable (Lyra delos and DV Karat 17/D3) - so i'd need MM cartridge suggestions
2 - sell the TD 124/SME and purchase something like a Rega p8/10 ( i need a small footprint TT with lid), keep the cartridges and get a suitable Phonestage

Thoughts, experiences and suggestions welcome please.

K
 
What 3009 is it? There is a world of difference between the various types. They are totally different arms.

PS The Series 1, pre-Improved Series II or R types are fine with most MCs, they are medium mass arms. The Series II Improved, especially the fixed-shell version, and also the Series III are certainly best suited to high-compliance MMs.

PPS what sub-platter does your 124 have? The (much better sounding) heavy green iron one does have a ferrous content so can attract some MC carts and Deccas so needs careful use. You can still run many MC carts with it e.g. SPU, DL-103 etc. It tends to be modern stuff with really strong neodymium magnets that must be avoided.
 
The OP says that it's a series 2 improved.

Has the TD124 been properly serviced recently by someone who knows what they're doing? If not, you need to budget for that too. Don't keep using it if it needs a service, you can do a lot of very expensive damage.
 
kwmason said:
I've been without a system for over a year now due to house renovation. For years i've loved the classic Well-tempered/Dynavector/Shahinian set up with a few deviations along the way but that is all sadly long gone now.

I've just acquired a Creek Destiny, and i have a TD124 and SME3009 series II improved needing setting up. i have a couple of options in front of me

1 - stick with the TD124/SME 3009 but i doubt the cartridges i have are suitable (Lyra delos and DV Karat 17/D3) - so i'd need MM cartridge suggestions
2 - sell the TD 124/SME and purchase something like a Rega p8/10 ( i need a small footprint TT with lid), keep the cartridges and get a suitable Phonestage

Thoughts, experiences and suggestions welcome please.

K
Click to expand...

When folk type 'TD124' and 'needing setting up' in the same sentence, I automatically think 'restoration', and the various threads on the subject come to mind.

Still, if the deck is running OK as is, something like a cheap A-T will at least let you know what to expect, and what might need further attention without investing too much up front. This assumes that you have the optional MM phono board fitted to the Creek. This presents 47k//100pF and, therefore, should work well with audio-technica or Ortofon MM cartridges.

If you haven't done so already, suggest having a read through Tony's 'Thorens TD-124/II restoration / upgrade' thread on here first before embarking upon any TD124 journey.
 
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Craig B said:
When folk type 'TD124' and 'needing setting up' in the same sentence, I automatically think 'restoration', and Tony L's (and others') thread(s) on the subject come to mind.
Click to expand...

Having just completed two full rebuilds on TD124's for other people, that's the first thing that came to my mind too! Hence my question about when it was last serviced properly.

Any TD124 that hasn't already had a rebuild will almost certainly need doing now.
 
If the 3009 Improved is the fixed shell variety I’d suggest a cart at the higher-compliance end of the available options, the cheaper ATs such as the 95E is quite low and would be far happier in a heavier arm. My recommendation (assuming one doesn’t want to deep-dive vintage carts and modern styli, e.g. Shure V15) is to try and hunt down something like a Ortofon 540/II or OM40 which are both a superb match for the fixed shell Improved.

PS As ever when reading my 124 thread the recommendation is to read it backwards. It is very much a blog/learning curve and many very expensive mistakes were made. Mainly due to misplaced trust. All rectified now though; it is a great sounding deck and running reliably.
 
Thanks for the responses so far. To answer some questions
The arm has the detachable headshell
The turntable is set up just needs arm putting on but a service is maybe a good idea
The turntable is the green sub platter
Cheers
 
The detachable headshell Series II Improved has an effective mass of 9.5g IIRC. As such, and given the iron sub-platter on your 124, I’d concentrate on MM carts and land the very best you can justify. Just be aware the arm was designed for fairly light cartridge bodies in SME’s own very light headshell, so it can struggle to balance some heavier ones, especially in third-party headshells. It certainly works fine with the likes of an Ortofon 2M Black, 540/II etc, I can vouch for those myself.
 
I have a 3009 S2 improved (fixed headshell, on an LP12). On the advice of Peter at Cymbiosis, it is used with an AT VM540ML. Sounds absolutely brilliant.
 
The 3009/improved isn't the best match for the DV but it will work as a stopgap. Ideally, you want a very high compliance MM. The AT VM7xx series would work well but, better still, an older Shure V15/III body with a new high quality aftermarket stylus.
 
Well I skimmed through the td124 thread and realised the depth of information would best be absorbed over time so I took the plunge and did the set up today.
td124 looked over, mechanics great all working as should, belt ok etc so added new oil. Platter spinning perfect
Several hours mounting arm into heavy ply plinth
Using Lyra Delos initially until decide on suitable MM bit sounds great. No external noise etc

Now what phonostage is next bit of research- what level is not OTT
 
FWIW Japanese audiophiles, which after all is where many very nice cartridges are made, seem to have no issue at all using high-end MC carts in 3009s. The Japanese audio community as a whole didn’t seem to buy into the almost children’s cartoon-level understanding of “rigidity” that was so heavily marketed to us in the UK in the ‘80s. They just didn’t do the straight black fixed-shell arm thing except at a cost-cut budget level (e.g. Jelco for export). I’ve frequently seen multi-£thousand Koetsus etc in 3009s etc when browsing around various Japanese audio forums. It clearly works for folk with budgets that would easily extend to more familiar options here in the UK. As ever if it sounds good, it is good! There are many different ways to think about tonearm design and cartridge compatibility!
 
I mounted the Delos with the stylus guard on not realising once in place it couldn’t be removed due to the nature of it sliding off.
Few tweaks tomorrow but sounding superb.
Need to look at strobe as the light is on but no strobe is at home
 
kwmason said:
I mounted the Delos with the stylus guard on not realising once in place it couldn’t be removed due to the nature of it sliding off.
Few tweaks tomorrow but sounding superb.
Need to look at strobe as the light is on but no strobe is at home
Click to expand...
If by 'no strobe is at home' you meant none appear to be anywhere near stationary, despite playback sounding on key, then your may have the stroboscope screen adjusted for 60Hz usage rather than 50Hz. The manual covers how to adjust this; easily done from above with platters off using a flat-blade screwdriver.
 
thanks Craig i will check that - what i have is a light but nothing to look at no movement or sign of strobe disc
 
Interesting. Well, that leaves 3 parts; 1) strobe window, 2) mirror and 3) strobe pattern on the underside of the platter.

Things to check:
  • Strobe window crazed such that there isn't enough light passing through to revealing a clear reflection of the strobe pattern.
  • Missing or dislodged mirror. Held on via a metal clip that is secured with 2 x screws. May have been broken or lost and never replaced.
  • No strobe pattern printed round the outer circumference of the underside of the platter (highly unlikely).
 
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I still haven't had time to check the strobe but i have changed amps and have a creek evolution 100a with a built in MM phono stage.

I can't continue using the Lyra delos with being able to fit a guard so i will give the built in phono stage a try with potentially a 2M black or i am considering a DV 20x2 high output.
 
DV quote a compliance of 12cu for 20x2 (either version) which would be far too low for 3009/S2 Improved (detachable headshell) were it not for the fact that the Japanese reference dynamic compliance wrt 100Hz. The general consensus is to multiply the @100Hz value by 1.7 for a circa @10Hz compliance number. In this case, we get 20.4cu which is more in line with what works well with 3009/S2 Improved. This is also very close to Ortofon's listed lateral dynamic compliance for 2M series of 22µm/mN (which equates to cu, aka compliance units).
 
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