topoxforddoc
pfm Member
5L of XTOL only costs £6.50 - much cheaper than DDX @ about £10 a litre. The stock solution of XTOL keeps for 6 months in closed 1L bottles. I never got my DDx to last that long, once opened.
Charlie
Shopin' list for B&W processing
- Thread starter Patrick Dixon
- Start date
5L of XTOL only costs £6.50 - much cheaper than DDX @ about £10 a litre. The stock solution of XTOL keeps for 6 months in closed 1L bottles. I never got my DDx to last that long, once opened.
Charlie
Tantris
pfm Member
With a larger film area, developers that emphasise acutance are a good choice, as the trade-off in extra grain is more than compensated for. (The balance tends to shift the other way in 35mm / MF). I wouldn't use a developer like Perceptol, which smears the grain in order to mask it, with a 4x5 negative.
Rodinal, a one-shot developer (i.e. you add concentrate to water whenever you want to make up developer) is a good candidate, particularly as you can vary the dilution from 1:25 up to 1:200 for different effects. (Leaving the film standing in a highly dilute solution produces quite different acutance and edge effects than agitating in a more concentrated solution). The concentrate keeps for years. I have found TMax and Rodinal 1:50 to be a very good match, and very flexible for N+ / N- development.
You can also look at some of the staining developers based on pyrogallol or catechol that go back to the early days of photography - I have an early 20th century Ilford manual which talks about their use. They are a little more complicated to use - the film is immersed in the used developer after fixing, in order to induce/deepen the stain - and they are more toxic than hydroquinone-based developers - but the tonal range is unrivalled because the stain controls the highlights. The negatives are also beautiful in their own right. Silverprint sell a PMK Pyro kit, which does the job well. Ilford FP4/HP5 and Delta films all respond to Pyro very well - Delta 100 in particular.
Rodinal, a one-shot developer (i.e. you add concentrate to water whenever you want to make up developer) is a good candidate, particularly as you can vary the dilution from 1:25 up to 1:200 for different effects. (Leaving the film standing in a highly dilute solution produces quite different acutance and edge effects than agitating in a more concentrated solution). The concentrate keeps for years. I have found TMax and Rodinal 1:50 to be a very good match, and very flexible for N+ / N- development.
You can also look at some of the staining developers based on pyrogallol or catechol that go back to the early days of photography - I have an early 20th century Ilford manual which talks about their use. They are a little more complicated to use - the film is immersed in the used developer after fixing, in order to induce/deepen the stain - and they are more toxic than hydroquinone-based developers - but the tonal range is unrivalled because the stain controls the highlights. The negatives are also beautiful in their own right. Silverprint sell a PMK Pyro kit, which does the job well. Ilford FP4/HP5 and Delta films all respond to Pyro very well - Delta 100 in particular.
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
My test shots are Acros so I'll steer clear of Pyro (Prescysol maybe) at the moment. Once I've figured out that the equipment and process all works, I can experiment further.
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
Well, I shot and processed a B&W sheet.
Unfortunately I over exposed the negative and then accidentally exposed one end of the Quickload sheet when the clip fell off (it just fell off in my hands - honest).
Processing was 11.5 mins @ 20 degC in Rodinal 1:50 (continuous agitation), with a water stop and 2 mins of fixer using a low odour fixer.
So how long should the stop bath be? And should the stop and fix be continuous agitation too?
Unfortunately I over exposed the negative and then accidentally exposed one end of the Quickload sheet when the clip fell off (it just fell off in my hands - honest).
Processing was 11.5 mins @ 20 degC in Rodinal 1:50 (continuous agitation), with a water stop and 2 mins of fixer using a low odour fixer.
So how long should the stop bath be? And should the stop and fix be continuous agitation too?
stop bath is really just trying to prolong the life of the fixer by removing developer from the film, so I tend to use 1 wash and 10 seconds of agitation or so.
Your 2 mins of fixer doesn't sound like much - check the docs. I use Ilford rapid fixer and it's around 4 mins if I remember. The key to getting good results is to make sure you wash the film after fixing. I've recently used much longer than previously, maybe 10 mins of washing, changing the water a couple of times.
Cesare
Your 2 mins of fixer doesn't sound like much - check the docs. I use Ilford rapid fixer and it's around 4 mins if I remember. The key to getting good results is to make sure you wash the film after fixing. I've recently used much longer than previously, maybe 10 mins of washing, changing the water a couple of times.
Cesare
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
Fotospeed FX30 - 1:4 2 mins it says on the container. Should I be agitating the fixer? (I did).
I did 2 mins of water agitating continuously for the stop, but not much washing as I realised that it was a bit of a lost cause and I still had the tea to cook.
(I just chucked the used developer and fixer away)
I did 2 mins of water agitating continuously for the stop, but not much washing as I realised that it was a bit of a lost cause and I still had the tea to cook.
(I just chucked the used developer and fixer away)
Yes, agitate the fixer.If you check it'll tell you how much over the suggested time you can go - I think Ilford say 50% without problems, and since I reuse it I tend to go on the longer is better end of things. Rinse removes some of the dye from the film base so again you want more rather than less.
Cesare
Cesare
Tantris
pfm Member
It looks as if your negatives are underexposed, and I would try rating Acros at EI 64 (i.e. 2/3rds of a stop greater), or even EI 50 to make sure that you get sufficient depth in the blacks, and overall contrast in the negative. Acros and Rodinal 1:50 is a good match, however. By the way, the 'exposed' stickers that come with Quickload are supposed to fold over the metal bar at the bottom of the packet, to stop it coming away and ruining the film. You then remove the sticker just before you're ready to develop the film.
With continuous agitation, the time of 11.5 minutes at 20C is probably about right, at an EI between 50 and 80. Agitation should bring fresh developer into contact with the film surface - a gentle rocking won't be enough.
Stop bath is used to make sure that development does not continue beyond the development time required. I tend to use a water rinse now because I don't like using strongly acidic chemicals. A rinse of about one minute (in either water or stop bath) is about right.
I use Ilford Rapid Fixer, and leave it in for about 8 minutes. Underfixed negatives deteriorate over time.
I then wash with running water for a minimum of 15 minutes. If I'm using PMK Pyro, the wash will be 20-25 minutes.
With continuous agitation, the time of 11.5 minutes at 20C is probably about right, at an EI between 50 and 80. Agitation should bring fresh developer into contact with the film surface - a gentle rocking won't be enough.
Stop bath is used to make sure that development does not continue beyond the development time required. I tend to use a water rinse now because I don't like using strongly acidic chemicals. A rinse of about one minute (in either water or stop bath) is about right.
I use Ilford Rapid Fixer, and leave it in for about 8 minutes. Underfixed negatives deteriorate over time.
I then wash with running water for a minimum of 15 minutes. If I'm using PMK Pyro, the wash will be 20-25 minutes.
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
I'm pretty sure they're over exposed rather than under exposed as the sky is totally blown and a chrome I did at the same time is also over.
I used the recommended development time of 13.5mins for ISO100/1:50/20degC and dropped by 15% to allow for continuous development. That gave me 11.5mins.
I had another exposure at the same ISO/Shutter/Aperture so I treated that as ISO50 and developed for 9.35mins.
Unfortunately, I think I screwed up the stop as I just sat it in water for a few minutes before discarding and adding fixer as before. The neg came out cloudy so I re-fixed it, but there are some uneven marks and smears. Conclusion is that the stop needs agitation too.
The scanning isn't great and it's a crap photo, but it all looks rather flat. I think this is why I gave up B&W processing before.
I used the recommended development time of 13.5mins for ISO100/1:50/20degC and dropped by 15% to allow for continuous development. That gave me 11.5mins.
I had another exposure at the same ISO/Shutter/Aperture so I treated that as ISO50 and developed for 9.35mins.
Unfortunately, I think I screwed up the stop as I just sat it in water for a few minutes before discarding and adding fixer as before. The neg came out cloudy so I re-fixed it, but there are some uneven marks and smears. Conclusion is that the stop needs agitation too.
The scanning isn't great and it's a crap photo, but it all looks rather flat. I think this is why I gave up B&W processing before.
The stop does need agitation - the stop is to wash the developer off so it doesn't develop the film any further, it's a tres important stage. I make a lot of water changes in the stop stage, first one after about 10 seconds, second 15 seconds, then extend them to 30 seconds for another couple of minutes, agitating all the time. The first couple will contain far more developer than the later stages, so I like to throw it away as quickly as possible to remove the developer from the mix.
If it's going cloudy with streaks, just sounds like you're not giving it enough of a whizz round in the photo-flo.
When you say you gave it 11 mins 30s, was that 11 mins 30s in the developer, then add the stop, or are you getting it into water at the 11 mins 30 mark? You need it in the water on the mark, as it will still be coated in developer even when it's been removed from the solution.
All the stages need agitation really, if you can be arsed, agitating constantly throughout the process isn't going to do any harm.
You could always knock a little more time off the development if you feel it's over-doing it, but it's possible the scanner is over-exposing too, I had that problem. You could try loading into photoshop and using the curves to select the unexposed edge of the frame as the black point and see if that improves it at all? Or you could stop down your images, although it'd be better to get a reasonable neg. before you try that.
The image above doesn't look far off really, looks like it was a fairly bright day - did you meter for the highlights?
If it's going cloudy with streaks, just sounds like you're not giving it enough of a whizz round in the photo-flo.
When you say you gave it 11 mins 30s, was that 11 mins 30s in the developer, then add the stop, or are you getting it into water at the 11 mins 30 mark? You need it in the water on the mark, as it will still be coated in developer even when it's been removed from the solution.
All the stages need agitation really, if you can be arsed, agitating constantly throughout the process isn't going to do any harm.
You could always knock a little more time off the development if you feel it's over-doing it, but it's possible the scanner is over-exposing too, I had that problem. You could try loading into photoshop and using the curves to select the unexposed edge of the frame as the black point and see if that improves it at all? Or you could stop down your images, although it'd be better to get a reasonable neg. before you try that.
The image above doesn't look far off really, looks like it was a fairly bright day - did you meter for the highlights?
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
I think the streaks are more likely caused by the photo-flo rather than the lack of it! The first neg I didn't bother and got no streaks and the second I did and got them.
The trouble is that none of these chemicals seem to have much in the way of instructions with them. How do you use photo-flo when you are washing in running water for 10-20 mins? Surely it will all get washed away in the first few seconds?
The trouble is that none of these chemicals seem to have much in the way of instructions with them. How do you use photo-flo when you are washing in running water for 10-20 mins? Surely it will all get washed away in the first few seconds?
You don't, you wash the neg for 10 - 20 mins, then you add a small amount of flo to water (5ml per 495ml of water) and dip the neg in, shake it around a little, then hang it up to dry. Water and flo should be the last thing to touch the film, you won't get streaks then, it's from the water not the wetting agent if you are getting them.
Tantris
pfm Member
Patrick; you need to get enough light on the film to give the blacks sufficient depth, and then control the development so that the highlights don't blow out. That's what I mean by underexposed, and management of overall and local contrast in the negative - the immediate cause of the blown highlights is the gradient of the tonal curve of your development - the exposure is a second order contributory factor.
The second negative you have posted has a large contrast range from the bright sun/sky to the shadows in the field; in those conditions I would rate Acros at an EI between 32 and 50 (i.e. get the light on the film for the blacks) and pull development by 20-40% (your own tests will show you how much) in order to control the highlights.
I hope this helps! Ansel Adams' The Negative is the definitive reference on this.
EDIT: the film is washed first, and then dipped in a solution of Photoflo before being hung up to dry.
The second negative you have posted has a large contrast range from the bright sun/sky to the shadows in the field; in those conditions I would rate Acros at an EI between 32 and 50 (i.e. get the light on the film for the blacks) and pull development by 20-40% (your own tests will show you how much) in order to control the highlights.
I hope this helps! Ansel Adams' The Negative is the definitive reference on this.
EDIT: the film is washed first, and then dipped in a solution of Photoflo before being hung up to dry.
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
Yes, well that's effectively what I've done - I screwed up metering and overexposed 100ASA by (say) 1 stop, and then developed for 9.35mins instead of 11.5. The results are crap.
The first one actually looks better, although the skies are blown. Maybe with the second one I just totally screwed up something???
I don't really want to get into all the N-1, N, N+1 stuff at the moment - I just think I should be able to get an process that gives me an acceptable result at 'N', and I'm not understanding what I have to do to get that at the moment :-(
Patrick Dixon
Imagineer
I'm wondering if it's lens flare that's contributing to the second shot looking so flat. I have another I shot of the second scene shot at one stop under the other two, so I'll try processing that as per the first one (ie 'N'), and taking stop, fix and wash lessons into account, and see what it looks like. After that I will have to go and shoot some more.
Tantris
pfm Member
One of the advantages of LF is the ability to flex exposure and development for individual sheets of film, rather than having to use an average (N) across a whole roll in other words, you can expose for the shadows, and develop for the highlights optimally. But with a film like Acros, which is quite forgiving of shifts in both exposure and development, you should be able to come up with an N profile which will get you very good results in the majority of situations. Rating it at EI64 or 80, and developing for between 10 and 12 minutes in Rodinal 1:50 at 20oC should get you into the ballpark. The second shot has you almost shooting into the sun, however, with a high contrast range, which is where this approach wont work optimally. Flare will also certainly be an issue, especially with an uncoated lense.
Cav
pfm Member
How, and with what, do you meter the exposure? e.g. reflected light, incident light, duplex metering...?
sideshowbob
Champagne fascia aficionado
Yes to agitating the fixer, I do 4 agitations every 30 seconds.
2 mins is fine with Fotospeed, it's a very rapid fixer (more rapid than Ilford, which I normally give 4 mins).
I don't think you need such a complex stop bath. In fact given that Patrick is using his developer and fix as one shot solutions he can ignore the stop and just chuck the fix in since he is not going to polute his fix for other film.
Also, realistically how much developer do you think is left on your film after you empty your tank? Let's say 5ml remain, and you slosh 500ml of water in to stop the development, then you are already looking at diluting the remaining developer by a factor of 100, and so one stop bath is enough to stop development completely. The amount of developer carried across to the fix (which is the reason for the stop bath) is then insignificant as well (1/100th of what unstopped film would carry across).
Cesare