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Seperate Power/signal snaics (Naim)

Mr Tibbs said:
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3. I imagine JV came up with the idea. They've made such a song and dance about their 'correct grounding' over the years that any change now would be unthinkable.
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Given how many others of JV's preferences they've seemed happy to toss out the window, I don't see why that particular one would be any different - if there was sales to be made.....

JV's idea was that all Naim systems should be star earthed, with every component earthed via a common earth point, through the power amp (presumably because the power amp is generally the greatest current hog, with the largest current to dump, should anything go wrong).

Given the regularity with which questions come up about hard to diagnose earth loops, I'd say it doesn't sound that unreasonable!
 
cliddell said:
Given how many others of JV's preferences they've seemed happy to toss out the window, I don't see why that particular one would be any different - if there was sales to be made.....
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I don't agree with that at all. It would represent a huge change both from a practical POV and also a massive climb down in terms of what they have been saying over many years. It could cost them money in terms of a loss of confidence among their core customers.


JV's idea was that all Naim systems should be star earthed, with every component earthed via a common earth point, through the power amp (presumably because the power amp is generally the greatest current hog, with the largest current to dump, should anything go wrong).
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But their method actually compromises the star earthing principle!

(star earthing means NOT sharing power and signal grounding over one conductor)

Given the regularity with which questions come up about hard to diagnose earth loops, I'd say it doesn't sound that unreasonable!
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Naim's grounding method does not have any advantage in this respect.

Mr Tibbs
 
"3. I imagine JV came up with the idea. They've made such a song and dance about their 'correct grounding' over the years that any change now would be unthinkable."

Err like everything else they would never do, but now have!
 
Mr Tibbs said:
I don't agree with that at all. It would represent a huge change both from a practical POV and also a massive climb down in terms of what they have been saying over many years. It could cost them money in terms of a loss of confidence among their core customers.
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Like the climb down on saying any "decent" mains cable will work properly? Or that DIN plugs/sockets are inherently superior to phono? Or that BNC plugs are inherently superior to phono?

Seems to me quite a few core principles of the JV times have fallen by the wayside (and let's not talk about the sound), and I don't see the earthing strategy as any more significant than those others.

And, FWIW, the core principle of the earthing strategy has already been heavily diluted by the move away from DIN plugs - phonos have no separate earth connections.....
 
JV always thought of the PSU as the reference point for everything. Even a power amp is just a modulated power supply. That's why he routed the signal via the PSU. Looked at that way, the star earth is probably better viewed as a tree earth with branches converging on the trunk in the PSU.

Naim put signal and DC down one shielded lead. I shield the audio and keep the power well away then package it up nicely. It all adds up to lower noise and more dynamics.
 
cliddell said:
Like the climb down on saying any "decent" mains cable will work properly? Or that DIN plugs/sockets are inherently superior to phono? Or that BNC plugs are inherently superior to phono?

Seems to me quite a few core principles of the JV times have fallen by the wayside (and let's not talk about the sound), and I don't see the earthing strategy as any more significant than those others.
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There is a clear commercial advantage to selling hugely expensive mains leads and not putting off potential owners that don't like DIN plugs. There is no clear commercial advantage to correcting the grounding anomaly - quite the opposite.

Anyway, I'm not at all interested in some side debate over why Naim have stuck with their grounding arrangement. Technically it's wrong - come back when you can prove otherwise.

Mr Tibbs
 
MJS said:
JV always thought of the PSU as the reference point for everything. Even a power amp is just a modulated power supply. That's why he routed the signal via the PSU. Looked at that way, the star earth is probably better viewed as a tree earth with branches converging on the trunk in the PSU.
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I've a lot of respect for the man and his products but his thoughts weren't always correct IMO. Not on this issue anyway.

Mr Tibbs
 
I have it running now with the new cable from Flashback. I've only played a few tracks but I think there is a slight improvement, I'll have to do some A-B's later.
 
PhilDick said:
I have it running now with the new cable from Flashback. I've only played a few tracks but I think there is a slight improvement, I'll have to do some A-B's later.
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It improves clarity throughout the range but is most noticeable in how bass lines are articulated, so listen to some music with plenty going on in the bass department and it should become obvious without the need to resort to swapping back and forth. Also choose some music with a lot going on and you should start to hear stuff that was buried in the noise until now.

Mr Tibbs
 
Cables are so subjective, and that's why we offer a 30 day money back guarantee if no-one is happy with them. We have a very low return rate so must be doing something right.
 
MJS said:
Cables are so subjective, and that's why we offer a 30 day money back guarantee if no-one is happy with them. We have a very low return rate so must be doing something right.
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Screening the signal leads separately away from the power leads would have some benefit but (if you must stick with Naim's dodgy grounding method) you could try experimenting with a lower resistance 0V link between the preamp and PSU. Years ago I made up a lead with a 0V link having half the resistance of the screen in a black SNAIC and this made a decent improvement.

Here's the interesting thing though - the more I reduced the resistance of the 0V link (still using the Naim connection method) the closer the sound came to simply connecting the preamp direct to the power amp ;)

Mr Tibbs
 
PhilDick said:
More encouragement from the objective brigade is good.
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Sure :)

The standard Naim method keeps all PSU related noise well below audibility.
Job done and no need to mess with something that isn't broke.

You can't get more inaudible than inaudible.
It's trivially easy to scope the output of a Naim amp using different wiring methods for those vendors proposing upgrades to show beyond any doubt one of two things:
- Any measurable change.
- Any measurable change of audible proportions.
Nothing exists out there, including from Naim to support their chosen method - so ask yourself why that might be.

SNAICS are fine, as are Flashbacks which are great value given the faff of soldering those thick multicore cables to dins.
 
Robert said:
Sure :)

The standard Naim method keeps all PSU related noise well below audibility.
Job done and no need to mess with something that isn't broke.

You can't get more inaudible than inaudible.
It's trivially easy to scope the output of a Naim amp using different wiring methods for those vendors proposing upgrades to show beyond any doubt one of two things:
- Any measurable change.
- Any measurable change of audible proportions.
Nothing exists out there, including from Naim to support their chosen method - so ask yourself why that might be.

SNAICS are fine, as are Flashbacks which are great value given the faff of soldering those thick multicore cables to dins.
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Oh yes, I forgot. If anyone hears a difference between the two grounding methods they are simply deluding themselves. FWIW, trying to measure the effect with a 'scope is like trying to see an atom with a magnifying glass.

Mr Tibbs
 
Mr Tibbs said:
Oh yes, I forgot. If anyone hears a difference between the two grounding methods they are simply deluding themselves. FWIW, trying to measure the effect with a 'scope is like trying to see an atom with a magnifying glass.

Mr Tibbs
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Not at all - we are talking about a power supply (including connection) and how well (or not) it performs the task of driving the circuit. That is measurable without recourse to imprecise subjective comment to describe a phenomena. It can and should be defined in cold, analytical terms. The rest is all well and good if comparing two musical works, or pianos, or cartridges - not good for analysing a power supply or its connection.

We don't need to see atoms, only the structures they create.
Similarly we don't need to concern ourselves with noise, unless it develops to the point of audibility.

It's more about being mistaken about what's being heard rather than any form of delusion.
 
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