Rock and Metal Listening Fatigue
- Thread starter Columbo
- Start date
Mike Reed
pfm Member
Okay, I had a Benz which sounded much better with 220R (Superline) whereas my K only worked properly on 100R. Whenever I switched cart's I thought my front end was broken because I'd forgotten to switch the impedance. However, as I said, 100R is usually the lowest (i.e. default setting) R number) of most stages. My valved jobbie is quite different, of course.
Yes, I know the formula is theoretically 10 x the internal impedance and my Proteus would require 10R using that formula, which is not a measure within the compass of ant s/state stage I've heard of. My K would need 40R but everybody knows 100R will be fine but no more.
I've never experienced different loading to mitigate against duff records; it'll change the sonic signature but that's it. Silk purse out of a sow's ear just doesn't happen in my book.
garyi
leave blank
As a slight aside when I get some new hifi to play with I always play enter sandman, Metallica. Not because I particularly like the track but because it’s such a shite recording but is apparently a good recording so I am looking for the elusive set up that helps it to not sound like nails on a chalk board.
Got a melco here to play with, it did not help.
Same with led zep, I want to like it but all the recordings are just shite, thin, reedy, fatiguing on anything I have heard it on
Got a melco here to play with, it did not help.
Same with led zep, I want to like it but all the recordings are just shite, thin, reedy, fatiguing on anything I have heard it on
Tony L
Administrator
The first two albums should sound pretty good, they have dynamics and it is before the ‘cocaine aesthetic’ came in. The problem is the stuff available on streaming services tends to be the remasters by a stone deaf Robert Plant who I assume was monitoring a 100db or more just to be able to hear it. The vinyl sounds totally different and is free from the brash thin ‘brickwall’ aesthetic.
I had a quick listen to IV on Tidal last night (just the first couple of bars of Black Dog) and it sounds like the Plant remaster, but additionally screwed-up with MQA (which my DAC doesn’t do). Basically a lossy brickwalled mastering. Still listenable and if I liked the music I’d certainly be able to enjoy it, but it represents a tiny percentage of the performance my system is capable of sounding small, flat and processed. Any original UK vinyl on a Planar 3 with an AT95E would knock it into the weeds.
Pressure23
Member
I Should never have given my 80s copy of IV to Oxfam…
I thought Jimmy Page oversaw all the remasters? Will have to look it up..
I thought Jimmy Page oversaw all the remasters? Will have to look it up..
SONDEKNZ
Kiwi, now living in Hangzhou, CHINA
Our two-box TRICHORD Delphini (solid-state, J-fet) offers 33R as a minimum load, right the way up to 47K, so I get to play around a bit.
But I confess, I wish it had a few most settings between 100R and 1K!
Nevertheless, I’d never part with it!
Pretty sure it’s Page remastering them as well,incidentally I’d never get rid of my gold led zep1 cd from the late 80s,definitely not thin or weedy,sounds like a band playing in my living room.
Now the Andy Jackson remastering of Floyd’s piper at the gates is horrible,literally the worst remaster I’ve ever heard.
Pressure23
Member
IIRC Peter Comeau shares your opinion!
darrenyeats
pfm Member
I played Lateralus pretty loud yesterday. But not *very* loud - it is brickwalled in the loud bits. Like Tony says you can hear the bad (also the aspects you like) ... but if you don't want to listen to it at all, I'd say something is wrong!
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Maybe this is a good time to talk about Sleater Kinney - The Woods. Brickwalled to the point where the whole LP is a nasty mess of digital clipping. When I first heard it I assumed there was something wrong with the pressing! Now I absolutely love the way it sounds.
camverton
pfm Member
I think you’re right I have early CDs of the first three albums and they sound pretty good. I bought the remasters set which Page proudly claimed to have improved (crop circle on the cover iirc) and they are unlistenabl.
Yes, that is exactly why I use them. A well recorded piece of prog (Dream theater being a good example) can sound other wordly through the ATC's. They act as a filter to sort of the wheat from the chaff. A well recorded piece of music through the ATC's just makes all the problems within this world disappear for 25 minutes or so until you have to flip the album over.
Kostas
pfm Member
I changed a lot of equipment in the 00's, especially speakers. I grew up listening to a lot of punk & metal and still do occasionally so it's important for me to be able to listen rock music with my system. I remember for example how I had ear fatigue with Klipsch floorstanders, these speakers had impressed me with their lively sound & dynamics in the shop but in the long run I got tired and they had to go. Albums with great production (Black album for example) will sound great on all systems, the real test is to be able to hear albums with mediocre production whether it's "alternative" rock, NWOBHM, early thrash etc. That's a reason I have kept my two oldest pair of speakers, 17 & 14 years respectively. I can listen for hours any type of music with no ear fatigue.
He says he's never been 100% into this type of music so it makes sense not be interested. It also makes sense (as stereotypical as it is) not to be interested in metal with his expensive setup(s). I've met several if not many audiophiles with expensive systems who mainly listen classical and jazz plus others with a small collection that use it to listen to their equipment rather than the music. Most of the dealers/distributors in HiFi shows were not too keen to put my rock CD's for auditioning so I've just stopped bringing CD's with me.
He says he's never been 100% into this type of music so it makes sense not be interested. It also makes sense (as stereotypical as it is) not to be interested in metal with his expensive setup(s). I've met several if not many audiophiles with expensive systems who mainly listen classical and jazz plus others with a small collection that use it to listen to their equipment rather than the music. Most of the dealers/distributors in HiFi shows were not too keen to put my rock CD's for auditioning so I've just stopped bringing CD's with me.
John
Rack’em Up!
I think you’re correct. I have an early reissue and the 2014 European reissue remastered & produced by Jimmy Page pressed at Optimal Media GmbH. Will have to give it a spin later. I was lucky to come upon a RL LZ2.
I find - like everything - it depends. I was playing with a mates system and jazz sounded really sweet on it. However - he claimed he never heard metal sound good on anything. He came - and has decided a problem is - the amount of very sharp edges / transients etc is hard work for many systems. So - prog rock works on his - esp Pink Floyd, King Crimson and the like - but - what also worked was things like Epica, Within Temptation and some Nightwish.
That's a great album! I don't think it's badly recorded at all, it's recorded to sound the way they want it to. For example the heavy saturation on the end of 'Modern Girl' is deliberate but I've heard so many audiophiles complaining about it. Sad truth is that they want records which make their systems sound good, not records which the artists use to say something.
Many years ago I shifted the way I chose equipment and it transformed my system.
In the beginning I would listen to new equipment looking for more detail, tighter bass and other hi-fi niceties, which is I think the way a lot of people do things. The turning point was having two LP12s, one with an Ittok and the other with an RB300. For the bulk of the last thirty-five years I've had two LP12s and it's very instructive and it lets you find out what you prefer over protracted listening.
What I found was that the Ittok was more impressive. It had better dynamics, more apparent detail, because it was brighter, and deeper and tighter bass. On a short dem there is no way you'd pick the Rega. However, having both decks running let me play music on both. What I found was that well recorded records sound good on the Ittok but I tended not to play probably over sixty percent of my collection because they didn't sound good. They sounded like bad recordings and were not enjoyable.
When played on the RB300, although it was losing something on those good recordings, I was suddenly able to enjoy all of my records! It was a trade well worth it and stripping and rewiring the Rega clawed back most of what was lost to the Ittok and the RB3000 I have now, it's game over. I have another Ittok here just now and the difference is stark. The old Linn still shouts it's virtues but its nature hasn't changed. You still put on some records and want to stop listening to them very quickly.
I've employed the same method for decades now and it's worked well. Out with Naim CD players, in with a Rega Saturn-R for instance and the system sounds excellent, in my opinion. You can have your cake and eat it. There is equipment which will give you loads detail etc without making too much of recording flaws.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Yes agree totally. I recall skimming through a lengthy Steve Hoffman with people asking whether the CD or the vinyl had less distortion and better dynamic range - which misses the point entirely. It was a deliberate choice to make the record as brutal sounding as possible and I think it really works.
As an aside, it was the last record they made before they split up and I remember in interviews at the time they stated they felt their success had been limited because they were women playing rock music. It makes me wonder if the production style was chosen as a final throw of the dice, a big **** you to show they could be as heavy as any of their peers.
artoly
pfm Member
For a while on a previous system, Lateralus was a go-to test CD, along with Metallica black album, as it was so familiar. Being newish to the terminology, I had to google 'brickwalled', and will now need to do another comparison some time to listen for that, when my favoured amp and DAC are working again. I'll also have to re-compare LZ IV now and suspect I might find myself agreeing with my friend that he was right about the remaster (t.b.c.).
For what it's worth, my more recent system (speakers mostly) was a little fatiguing to my slowly aging ears for some of this, but in my case, was sorted by a fairly reasonable valve pre (cables may have helped too, but best not to go their).
darrenyeats
pfm Member
Digital headroom (in the DAC, or the aforementioned digital volume control trick) will take some sting out of something properly brickwalled, but it will still be distorted. I see the unavoidable distortion as the artist's choice, and the avoidable distortion as my choice (not to have it).