Ripoles / Dipoles Celestion 6000
- Thread starter robbyd
- Start date
robbyd
pfm Member
yes but my point is:
using the Gradient sw63 subs with the Celestion active crossover, the output level only needs to be at around 50%.
with the Celestion 6000 subs it’s all the way to max and still barely there/adequate ...
that’s what I don’t get - the whole configuration seems lacking
clivem2
pfm Member
It’s tricky to visualise with words as does push and pull refer to cone movement or the driver chassis/magnet. If the cones move in absolute opposing directions then won’t there be total cancellation? This is how you run in bass drivers with zero sound...I’ve done this.
robbyd
pfm Member
I’m talking about cone movement, rightly or wrongly
clivem2
pfm Member
My cones...one pushes and one pulls...ie they move in unison. It is hard with words!
clivem2
pfm Member
Not in this case. The guys who came up with this have constant issues with people saying it can’t work and it needs massive eq but it works as measurements show. The downside is that large rooms would need several kw of power and massive cone excursions. The point is to remove baffle / box colourations and to keep footprint down...a single 15 inch with no baffle is too puny.
Rug Doc
pfm Member
I think that a tuned sealed subwoofer will always give more output than an open air subwoofer, so I wouldn’t expect the Celestion to out DB the Gradients...
what I woul do is spend a hell of a lot of time getting the System 6000 in the right place. As with that much cone and only the ROOM to reinforce the bass if you have them even slightly misplaced the output would die.
I would use the master set set-up procedure, plug in an iPod or laptop, stir off all EQ and start with one sub... then the other, then the monitors..
I’ll link.. it might drive you a bit mad, but it’s Soooo worthwhile, I guarantee you’ll be amazed at the difference. (If not please sell me the subs - they’d go well with my Celestions!!)
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60819.0
Yes, having them push/push is correct and the only way to get a decent output, if they were push/pull you’d get very little output.
edit - hold on. Just read the article that YNWOAN linked to, I assumed from the pics that I had seen previously, that the driver orientation was one facing forward, with the other piggy backing it from behind... this I read is now incorrect and the cones actually face each other? With magnets both on the outsides? Can you confirm?
If so, what you have is a compound isobaric and these drivers must be in physical phase with each other, so push/pull. Make sure that this is correctly wired up, if incorrect you’ll get pretty much zero output.
also when you’re checking that - make sure in turn that each driver Is working - then move onto masterset.
what I woul do is spend a hell of a lot of time getting the System 6000 in the right place. As with that much cone and only the ROOM to reinforce the bass if you have them even slightly misplaced the output would die.
I would use the master set set-up procedure, plug in an iPod or laptop, stir off all EQ and start with one sub... then the other, then the monitors..
I’ll link.. it might drive you a bit mad, but it’s Soooo worthwhile, I guarantee you’ll be amazed at the difference. (If not please sell me the subs - they’d go well with my Celestions!!)
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60819.0
Yes, having them push/push is correct and the only way to get a decent output, if they were push/pull you’d get very little output.
edit - hold on. Just read the article that YNWOAN linked to, I assumed from the pics that I had seen previously, that the driver orientation was one facing forward, with the other piggy backing it from behind... this I read is now incorrect and the cones actually face each other? With magnets both on the outsides? Can you confirm?
If so, what you have is a compound isobaric and these drivers must be in physical phase with each other, so push/pull. Make sure that this is correctly wired up, if incorrect you’ll get pretty much zero output.
also when you’re checking that - make sure in turn that each driver Is working - then move onto masterset.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
If you align these cone to cone and have them set up push pull then the only noise you will get out of them is the difference sum from their back wave cancelation, ie almost nothing. I have no idea if that was what the designer intended but itll require huge amp power to deliver any bass as it's the most inefficient way of making sound from paired drivers..
Ffs, that's what you do to run in speakers, wire them out of phase and face them at each other. What was the designer thinking.
Ffs, that's what you do to run in speakers, wire them out of phase and face them at each other. What was the designer thinking.
clivem2
pfm Member
It's getting rid of the baffles which makes such a difference, people who hear this kind of setup are greeted with bass that in every case I know of is amongst the best they've heard in a domestic setup. It is grotesquely inefficient and needs the right drivers. However, with class d low-cost semi-pro amps it's not an expensive way to do things.
awkwardbydesign
Officially Awesome
A ripole doesn't need two drivers, I use singles. That would be called an N profile, rather than a W profile. I simply don't have room for 2 bass drivers, so I made a stereo pair, sitting on their sides.
misterdog
Not the canine kind
The only thing I miss by having no box, is not having a top to store record covers on while they are playing.
Powered with a 250W class D MiniDSP plate amp. Controlled from the comfort of my laptop.
Kevin apaez
New Member
Hey I’m new to this site, I have a System 6000 and SL 600 which I’m using, they work as push/pull meaning that one driver goes forward and the other one goes the oposite, yes when you are too close to the dipole you can barely listen to the sound, the magic happens when you are in your listening position, although they need a big current amp with a big damping factor, you have 2 choices a hi end tank or profesional amplifier which is my case, this subwoofers are not louders than a powered subwoofer, even if they are set to play from 20 to 100 Hz there are not big bass cuse they are not mean to be that way, they are clear and fast buuut you are not getting that boomie feeling, my system is rated at 4 ohms which means that the speakers are conected in paralel but in oposite polarity in order to work as a dipole, Celestion said that this was supposed to be a 8 ohm amp (I blow my TA-N9000ES) but it is not rated as that, why? Cuse the confguration says so, in order to get 8 ohms you need to have the speakers rated at 16 ohms and then after doing the wire they go to 8 ohms, I’m asuming that my units are factory even tho they had some issues with the coil and they had to be taken care, there is a site where some people recomended to get Image Dynamic subwoofers to improve the lack of octave, got them but could´t fit into the space and right now I dont want to wide open the cabinet hole, long post sorry but this is what I’ve been geting so far
Toaster
pfm Member
I realise this is mostly an old thread, but reading through it, there is a danger of the push-push/ push-pull distinction being confused, or at least being confusing for someone reading the thread. The SL6000 is just a minimal baffle dipole that has one drive unit behind the other, rather than the side-by-side arrangement of the Gradient sub. Since the SL6000's drivers are mounted face to face, they are wired in reverse polarity electrically, so that they operate in phase with each other acoustically. Effective cone area should be the same as a single driver, but power handling will be doubled, so output will still be potentially higher than with a single driver per channel. The Gradient subs probably had higher output because they are built into an open-backed box (a so-called 'U-frame'), so dipole cancellation won't start to bite quite as high in frequency as with the SL6000s, and you have double the cone area. The drive units used by Gradient might also have more excursion. Relative output could also be affected by input sensitivity differences for the active crossovers used in each bass system. The HFW acticle, and HFW's DIY version using a single Audax driver for each channel are interesting and useful, and I also have Celestion's white paper on them somewhere, I think. Linkwitz's commercial Audio Artistry speakers used a similar design, but although each of the two driver pairs per channel were also mounted one behind the other, like the SL6000s, they were boxed in, more like the Gradients, although presumably as 'H-frames'. The review of the Audio Artistry Dvorak in Stereophile's April 1996 issue (Vol. 19 no.4) provides a lot of information about the design, along with measurements. I think I still have Linkwitz's AES preprint about using moving-coil drive units in dipoles kicking about too...
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