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Record Cleaning Fluid

H

hi-fi132

pfm Member
I've been using a Pro-Ject VC-S for several months now. For the most part it's a great machine, now that the initial production issues are sorted including replacement of the clamps. Also replaced was the record cleaning fluid, which was initially an alcohol-based formula but is now a non alcohol based concentrate, though containing what I don't know.


I've used the pro-ject fluid to clean a fair few records now, some of which I'll admit I've not gotten around to listening to since. Of the ones I have, many have been fine but some appear extremely noisy, producing a lot of crackle on playback. There doesn't appear to be any excessive residue being left on the stylus, nor are their any spots on the records to indicate that the Pro-Ject isn't sucking up all of the fluid. Records are placed into new poly-lined inner sleeves immediately after cleaning, and the surfaces are untouched. I've tried the zerostat anti-static gun and an anti-static brush with no luck.


So, has anybody ever noticed excessive noise after cleaning with a vacuum machine and a specific cleaning fluid? Assuming the fluid is at fault, what do people recommend? I'd like something that doesn't contain alcohol, l'art du son is a possibility. And can somebody advise as to the risks involved when cleaning a record more than once? Of course repetitive cleaning will eventually do some damage, but perhaps someone who knows more about vinyl as a material could shed some light on exactly how much cleaning one would have to do to degrade a record?
 
I think repeated cleaning is very unlikely to cause damage. I've cleaned a few really crackly secondhand LP's two or even three times and about half were rescued and the rest not worth bothering with. They cost so little at the time I reckon I'm well ahead though. I use a Moth with bioethanol which might not be your preference. Newer records always come up pristine and absolutely free of crackles.
 
I used to use a Moth with the Moth cleaner and it worked well. I switched from the Moth because to me the alcohol-based cleaners give the vinyl a rather harsh sound, whereas the non alcohol-based cleaners seem to alter the sound less. I've done a little bit of research and in a few places where people have had similar issues with other fluids, people have suggested that not enough fluid is being used. How much fluid do you apply to the record? I use just enough to evenly coat the surface but perhaps that's not enough?
 
You need to use a fair bit of fluid, because the dirt/dust needs to be in suspension within the fluid in order for the vacuum to suck it away. I use a Loricraft and my method is to apply a good coverage of fluid to the record and leave it to soak for around one minute before vacuuming it off. This not only removes all of the contaminant, but also kills the static too. I use L'art du son, which works for me, though I can't say that I've tried any alternatives.
 
I'll have a go tomorrow using more fluid. I thought I'd been using enough as some of the records came out fine and there was a fair bit of fluid on the record, but that said I do appear to be getting significantly more cleans out of the fluid than Pro-ject say is possible so maybe that is the issue after all. I may try another brush also, as the brush supplied with the VC-S is awful.
 
I have just used my VC-S for the first time today and cleaned about 6 records. The records look well and sound fine. I diluted the concentrate at just over 10% with Carplan deionised water from Sainsbury's.

A couple of tests were carried out on this DIW before use. The pH was tested with test papers and it was neutral - fine. About 10ml was then evaporated in a Pyrex jug using a heat gun. There was a slight residue but much much less than with tap water.

This slight residue could be algae and other insoluble particlulates. Deionisation only removes negative and positive charged ions from dissolved salts.

So as a precaution it was filtered through a very fine laboratory filter paper (Whatmans No. 542) before use.

The point is that the the quality of dilution water is an important factor. What water did you use? In theory distilled water should be better.
 
PS The brush did shed some goat hair but these were sucked away. Hopefully it will stop sheding with use.
 
I've been having very good results with Vinyl Rejuvenator. You need to leave it to dry about 10hrs this time of year, but it leaves no residue and removes every last bit of dirt leaving the vinyl shining like new and crackle free.
 
Has the early problem of the velvet strip detaching itself from the Project arm been resolved then?

I don't have an RCM yet, still using a pair of Knostis, but I do use DISTILLED water in one for rinsing. I can't see the merit of deionised water in this application and distilled water is available from Amazon!

If going to the trouble of filtering it, wouldn't the water from a domestic dehumidifier be suitable?
 
Are you saying quiet records are now more noisy after cleaning or records are not sounding any better after a clean? I think its the first and you have a contamination coming in somewhere, a dirty cloth, brush or fluid maybe? I keep my cleaning cloths and brush in a small box the area i am cleaning in is clean too.
I will clean records in batches starting with the cleanest one first and working towards any second hand finds. I use a vacuum rcm which can leave a drops of fluid in the edges sometimes, i dab it dry and never rub, always put the record in a new inner and outer and will wash my hands every few records and the cleaning brush is rinsed after every record. My mix is 85% distilled water 15% isopropyl alcohol with a drop of washing up liquid.
 
do you rinse on the project used this method for decades " belt & braces "
use two brushes 1 x wash with cleaning fluid & 1 x rinse with distilled water
distilled water is as cheap as chips & use lots of it
if records are heavy solied leave fluid to soak first
rinse/clean brushes & vacuum lips often to keep then clean
 
Having been a commissioning/validating engineer in the pure water industry for pharma and medical use for 25 years and seeing the quality control,or in some case's none,I would be sceptical of some of the water being sold.One very large chemical supplier I visited was,unknown to them as they had no QC system,selling tap water as demineralised.

I would recommend that you only use BP grade water as this has to pass very stringent QC testing and it's cheap enough
http://pureklenz.co.uk/purified-water-ep/
 
I've tried again this morning, using more fluid than before. This seems to have mostly solved the issue with a couple of the LPs sounding dead quiet though there are still some pops on records that should be quiet so I'm not entirely confident that everything is being removed from the grooves. That said it doesn't sound like dirt (it doesn't have that kind of unpleasant crack that you'd get from dirt) so I guess it's safe to let the stylus collect it and just give the stylus a clean. I've cleaned the brushes and vacuum arm. The fluid is diluted at a 1:10 ratio with triple distilled water from buydistilledwater.co.uk which has given me great results in the past with other fluid. For this latest attempt, I left the fluid to soak into the record for 30 seconds before vacuuming, Pro-Ject recommend 10 seconds in the manual. I'm vacuuming for about 8 seconds, which is enough for a couple of good rotations and leaves the records looking visually perfect. The fluid is spread evenly across the record. I guess it is possible I have a contaminant in the fluid, perhaps I should buy another bottle and some fresh water, or perhaps I need to improve my technique though I've never encountered these issues before. Thanks everyone for your input, any further views appreciated.

Which brushes are people using, and has anyone found a decent applicator bottle for applying the fluid?
 
GJO said:
Having been a commissioning/validating engineer in the pure water industry for pharma and medical use for 25 years and seeing the quality control,or in some case's none,I would be sceptical of some of the water being sold.One very large chemical supplier I visited was,unknown to them as they had no QC system,selling tap water as demineralised.

I would recommend that you only use BP grade water as this has to pass very stringent QC testing and it's cheap enough
http://pureklenz.co.uk/purified-water-ep/
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Thanks for this, worth a try. Any experience with products from http://www.buydistilledwater.co.uk? as there is what I'm currently using? I will get some of the water you recommend.
 
OP are these s/h records you are cleaning and are you saying that the fluid is making the records even noisier than before cleaning?
 
jimpey said:
Has the early problem of the velvet strip detaching itself from the Project arm been resolved then?

I don't have an RCM yet, still using a pair of Knostis, but I do use DISTILLED water in one for rinsing. I can't see the merit of deionised water in this application and distilled water is available from Amazon!

If going to the trouble of filtering it, wouldn't the water from a domestic dehumidifier be suitable?
Click to expand...
This issue was fixed back in April. It wasn't a major production issue, it had to do with the finish on some of the arms which was too smooth.
 
Bob McC said:
OP are these s/h records you are cleaning and are you saying that the fluid is making the records even noisier than before cleaning?
Click to expand...
No, these are brand new records. The records that prompted my starting this thread were a batch of 5 Ed Sheeran EPs which are all 2016 releases. They arrived in paper inners and covered in crap as new records usually do these days.
 
hi-fi132 said:
Thanks for this, worth a try. Any experience with products from http://www.buydistilledwater.co.uk? as there is what I'm currently using? I will get some of the water you recommend.
Click to expand...

No sorry,I am sure many of these suppliers are genuine,but some will buy a precharged mixed bed DI cylinder after being told they will make X amount's of DI water,so thats what they will produce regardless.They might do a PH check but that won't be a true measure of the quality,the only way of checking the quality is by conductivity or resistivity as good quality DI water won't have a PH as the ions should have been removed.

For those using non alcohol mixes,only BP grade has a bacterial spec and will lesson the risk of contamination which can be a problem.
 
After researching cleaning fluids, I've come to 2 conclusions. Firstly it seems that almost it it recommended to rinse almost anything non alcohol based. I've seen that many even use a rinse stage after L'Art which claims to not need one. Alcohol-based fluids don't seem to suffer from this issue. Pro-Ject make no mention that the VC-S cleaning fluid should be rinsed.


Secondly, though alcohol is inferior to a surfactant, when diluted with water it practically looses its ability to dissolve the plasticisers in the vinyl especially for the short period of time before vacuuming, thus rendering it perfectly safe.


That said, has anyone any experience with some of the commercial alcohol-based fluids, preferably over a long period of time, and can vouch for their performance and any possible adverse affects? I used to use the Moth fluid back when I had a Moth RCM and had great results with it. I'm thinking that perhaps I should simply replace the Pro-Ject fluid with something similar, even though I've always been hesitant to use anything alcohol-based. (as a side note, I don't want to mix a home recipe. I'd rather pay for a formula tried and tested by somebody else, rather than experiment with my own. I do realise this will mean paying an extortionate price for what is basically alcohol and water).


At this point having test a few more discs I'm fairly confident that the VC-S fluid isn't doing its job. I don't have any of the concentrate left to make another batch with different water to see if that's the issue, so my choices are now to either go with something else or perhaps buy more concentrate.
 
I've been mixing and using my IPA/water fluid for many years and around a couple of thousand records. I simply can't see a problem in this simple DIY approach.

My water is ex freezer, thrice filtered. My IPA is 99.????% pure and I add a dash of quality unperfumed washing up liquid. For me, the most important aspects of cleaning are (a) liberal use of fluid, (b) a good soak after spreading, and (c) allowing a minute or two, dependent upon ambient temperature, for total evaporation before sleeving. Haven't found a problem yet, and don't really expect to.
 
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