darrenyeats
pfm Member
If I were in your shoes, I would try to hear some actives. I would start with ATC, Linkwitz Lab and Focal.
Darren
Darren
Recommendations for Linn-Naim Audio System Upgrade
- Thread starter vpm
- Start date
Thank you. I appreciate your advice and will follow-up accordingly.
I presented alot and should look at small increments regarding source components first. Based on my current Linn LP12/Ittok/Klyde, how should that be changed, and what phono pre-amp should I consider?
darrenyeats
pfm Member
I'm not a vinyl guy so I won't comment on that side ...
For front end I would consider adding the Benchmark DAC2 HGC to your short-list if you don't need balanced inputs; it might be all the DAC and pre you need with roughly SOTA performance (of course it has balanced outputs).
Darren
For front end I would consider adding the Benchmark DAC2 HGC to your short-list if you don't need balanced inputs; it might be all the DAC and pre you need with roughly SOTA performance (of course it has balanced outputs).
Darren
Hook
Blackbeard's former bo'sun.
Hi Vpm -
Keep in mind that Chris has quoted you a complete rebuild. Your three components will be returned to an "as new" state in terms of sound quality. Given how old your equipment is, that difference should be night and day.
If your components are in good shape cosmetically, and if you enjoy the Olive sound, then it would sure seem worth doing. Do you really think you can spend $3K elsewhere and come away with more/better sound?
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
Hook
Keep in mind that Chris has quoted you a complete rebuild. Your three components will be returned to an "as new" state in terms of sound quality. Given how old your equipment is, that difference should be night and day.
If your components are in good shape cosmetically, and if you enjoy the Olive sound, then it would sure seem worth doing. Do you really think you can spend $3K elsewhere and come away with more/better sound?
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
Hook
2 many boxes
pfm Member
From my experience, I'd tend to point the finger at your Ittok. I went from an Ittok to an Ekos mk2 and that stretched the frequencies out at both ends. Before that I wasn't really getting the bass on Massive Attack's Mezzanine. I knew there was something there but it was muddy, indistinct.
If you do go for a used Ekos, the thing to check is the bearings of course. These can easily get lunched - I've done it! With no tracking force on, so that the arm floats freely, you should be able to move the arm around in both dimensions with no notchiness or friction at all. If you place a 1cm square piece of paper on top of the arm when it's floating freely, the arm should fall to it's lower limit of travel.
The nice thing about arms is that you can buy internationally, just so long as they've got the right packaging. Also get them to get a Linn dealer to remove the arm, or get the dealer to inspect it and package it. The counterweight should be removed. Mine was sent for repair through the British post to and from Glasgow, and if it can survive that it can survive pretty much anything.
Also you don't mention a power supply for the LP12. I know this shouldn't make such a difference, but believe me it does - I use an Armageddon and before that the LP12 didn't time that well, afterwards you can hear the syncopation of a track, why drummers do those funny little drum breaks - they're getting back on the beat or changing the beat.
I'd try those 2 things before anything else. However, Naim don't really do trouser flapping bass, or at least not at the price range I operate on. They tend to prioritise speed and control before anything else. I run SBLs actively and on Massive Attack's Angel you get the 'bump, ting, b-bump, ting' where bump is a bass drum and ting is a cymbal, but deep and fast as it is, it never hits me in the chest, the drivers just aren't big enough to shift enough air to do that.
That might just be SBLs though - I've never heard Isobariks but they were famed for their bass back in the day, but also for being a pig to drive. But 2 x 135s should do something.
Before the SBLs I had a pair of Linn Keilidhs which had 2 8-inch drivers. The only thing I miss them for is playing Chemical Brothers 'Out Of Control'. The bass might have been all over the place but it was exciting. That was with a single 250 though.
I do apologise for Linn / Naim's pricing policy in the US. They are ridiculously expensive compared to the UK. Maybe Ivor Tiefenbrun and Julian Verkeere are both direct descendants of George III and it's revenge for the loss of the colonies?
I hope that helps...
If you do go for a used Ekos, the thing to check is the bearings of course. These can easily get lunched - I've done it! With no tracking force on, so that the arm floats freely, you should be able to move the arm around in both dimensions with no notchiness or friction at all. If you place a 1cm square piece of paper on top of the arm when it's floating freely, the arm should fall to it's lower limit of travel.
The nice thing about arms is that you can buy internationally, just so long as they've got the right packaging. Also get them to get a Linn dealer to remove the arm, or get the dealer to inspect it and package it. The counterweight should be removed. Mine was sent for repair through the British post to and from Glasgow, and if it can survive that it can survive pretty much anything.
Also you don't mention a power supply for the LP12. I know this shouldn't make such a difference, but believe me it does - I use an Armageddon and before that the LP12 didn't time that well, afterwards you can hear the syncopation of a track, why drummers do those funny little drum breaks - they're getting back on the beat or changing the beat.
I'd try those 2 things before anything else. However, Naim don't really do trouser flapping bass, or at least not at the price range I operate on. They tend to prioritise speed and control before anything else. I run SBLs actively and on Massive Attack's Angel you get the 'bump, ting, b-bump, ting' where bump is a bass drum and ting is a cymbal, but deep and fast as it is, it never hits me in the chest, the drivers just aren't big enough to shift enough air to do that.
That might just be SBLs though - I've never heard Isobariks but they were famed for their bass back in the day, but also for being a pig to drive. But 2 x 135s should do something.
Before the SBLs I had a pair of Linn Keilidhs which had 2 8-inch drivers. The only thing I miss them for is playing Chemical Brothers 'Out Of Control'. The bass might have been all over the place but it was exciting. That was with a single 250 though.
I do apologise for Linn / Naim's pricing policy in the US. They are ridiculously expensive compared to the UK. Maybe Ivor Tiefenbrun and Julian Verkeere are both direct descendants of George III and it's revenge for the loss of the colonies?
I hope that helps...
Between a Naim SBL and a Neat Ultimatum MF5, I will easily choose the MF5. But that's my personal preference. Used MF5 and MF7 do appear once in a while in Audiogon.
The MF5 do need quite a bit of amplification to get it going, but certainly not as bad as the Isobariks. The MF5 need quite a bit of space too and definitely not for small listening room/space.
The MF5 do need quite a bit of amplification to get it going, but certainly not as bad as the Isobariks. The MF5 need quite a bit of space too and definitely not for small listening room/space.
+1 for the nj boards, I would also suggest selling the hi cap and putting a teddy cap in there it is way cheaper than a Dr service for your hi cap.
I'm daunted by Chris west's pricing myself. I have had essentially your system and now run 52/52PS with 250s into active Briks. The 52 is the biggest upgrade you can make and will give you much of what you want. More forceful bass, more visceral sound all around, yet smoother, richer, and more composed. It actually sounds like you'd expect of a more powerful amp. Stunning, really. As is active. Active will actually give less bass overhang but is a huge increase in ease and clarity and sounds like a layer of grit is removed.
No worries about the drivers IMO. Tweeters were made for years and you can drop in more recent Linn tweets which are widely touted as an upgrade or Hiquphons. Mids are in Kans and numerous other speakers. And that bass driver can also be cannibalized from speakers much cheaper than Briks.
For all they do wrong, you are looking at major money to match what they do right.
Ekos is another solid upgrade, as might be switching decks but Dv17 while vastly superior will give less bass than Klyde.
Can't speak to the new 72 boards or Teddy Cap but the 52 is def worth it at used prices.
And I have had the luxury of doing comparisons with recapped hicaps and amps and the difference just ain't that great. I had a 17 year old hicap with leaky caps and the damned thing was only a little better (mainly in clarity and extension) after service from Dever and West at Naim USA back in the old days.
No worries about the drivers IMO. Tweeters were made for years and you can drop in more recent Linn tweets which are widely touted as an upgrade or Hiquphons. Mids are in Kans and numerous other speakers. And that bass driver can also be cannibalized from speakers much cheaper than Briks.
For all they do wrong, you are looking at major money to match what they do right.
Ekos is another solid upgrade, as might be switching decks but Dv17 while vastly superior will give less bass than Klyde.
Can't speak to the new 72 boards or Teddy Cap but the 52 is def worth it at used prices.
And I have had the luxury of doing comparisons with recapped hicaps and amps and the difference just ain't that great. I had a 17 year old hicap with leaky caps and the damned thing was only a little better (mainly in clarity and extension) after service from Dever and West at Naim USA back in the old days.
RustyB
Registered Ginga
A friend of mine was running a similar system, with a 52, then went active after I converted the speakers to PMS, with a SNAXO and 250's.
He now has Yamaha NS 2000s driven by Parasound Halo electronics.
Given the perfromance of his new system (in a word, stunning), his opinion of Naim has taken a massive dive.
The combination of JC1, JC2 and JC3 with the NS2000s is hardly a budget solution, but comparable to what one might spend on the latest Naim gear, less than the ultimate.
One thing's for sure, bass weight and dynamics are there in spades!
NS1000's with lesser electronics should go a fair way in the right direction.
He now has Yamaha NS 2000s driven by Parasound Halo electronics.
Given the perfromance of his new system (in a word, stunning), his opinion of Naim has taken a massive dive.
The combination of JC1, JC2 and JC3 with the NS2000s is hardly a budget solution, but comparable to what one might spend on the latest Naim gear, less than the ultimate.
One thing's for sure, bass weight and dynamics are there in spades!
NS1000's with lesser electronics should go a fair way in the right direction.
Its better to keep to his current Naim system unless he is going for 52/supercap/135. For the genre that he normally listen to, he will not like the supernait. 30 years is a long time, but newer kit does not always mean better kit. I dont mind "downgrading" to a 72/hicap/135 or 52/supercap/135, but I can never live with a supernait. The supernait just dont make the mark, it just too far off.
The Neat ultimatums do need some space to set up, without knowing the conditions of his listening room, it may end up with unwanted outcomes. The higher Neat speakers are not easy to get it going, it will need some good amplification. The 135 maybe the minimum to get some of the ultimatum moving.
The Neat ultimatums do need some space to set up, without knowing the conditions of his listening room, it may end up with unwanted outcomes. The higher Neat speakers are not easy to get it going, it will need some good amplification. The 135 maybe the minimum to get some of the ultimatum moving.
MVV
pfm Member
No harm to have a listen to your kit against a modern good integrated if you can find a shop with a Lavardin IS Reference even better. There as also a review by Robert of pfm of a Cambridge 800 series Integrated pitched against the 72/135s that makes interesting reading.
The reason I mentioned the Supernait is that it is the amplifier (with CB Hicap) that you are most likely to find in use in the voicing room at the Neat factory, presumably they don't find it "just too far off the mark".
The reason I mentioned the Supernait is that it is the amplifier (with CB Hicap) that you are most likely to find in use in the voicing room at the Neat factory, presumably they don't find it "just too far off the mark".
I am just sharing with my personal experience after owning all of the above gear (and other gear which I own or borrowed from friends).
I had not heard the other integrated gear that you had mentioned, so I really cannot comment on it. They maybe great stuff but I have no idea.
This is what the OP said "I primarily listen to hard rock and high energy dance/rap music". That's an important information.
I had not heard the other integrated gear that you had mentioned, so I really cannot comment on it. They maybe great stuff but I have no idea.
This is what the OP said "I primarily listen to hard rock and high energy dance/rap music". That's an important information.
Excellent point! I have every intention of doing critical listening prior to spending any money. My purpose in posing my situation in the forums is to acquire a number of constructive opinions and advice that I can utilize when visiting different audio shops. It will also help me determine which audio shops I will visit. I am not bound by geography and will travel by automobile to other Midwestern states if there is a dealer offering a line of products that is not available in Southwestern, Ohio.
One thing I did not mention is how my system is set up and the sound of my 135's after the last re-cap. My system is located in my lower level in a completely furnished room of approx. 19'-10" W x 29'-10" L x 8' H. The floor is carpeted over concrete. With the DMS speakers being elevated off the floor on stands, it seems like the lower bass is lacking. When I first had my 135's recapped, they came back very bright sounding. Also, I personally did not feel the bass response was improved as advertised. I did not like the sound. Because of this and the room environment, I am hesitant to invest any more money in this system. My LP-12 turntable actually sits on a Sound Organization table is a closet directly behind where my equipment is located so the turntable is totally isolated from airborne vibration, which is an excellent scenario.
One respondent mentioned where else I can spend $3000 to obtain the newly refurbished sound of the Naim equipment. He is exactly correct, but do I have to spend this additional money just to make the equipment salable? My system sounds good now, but I am not going to take a major financial loss just because the next buyer will choose to invest additional money to have these pieces refurbished. That will be their choice. Because most of the older Naim equipment have held their value very well over the years, my quandary is if I do decide to sell my equipment, do I have to spend the $3,000 for refurbishment in order to get my money out of it when I sell it.
onlyconnect
pfm Member
sonddek
Trade: SUPATRAC
I had my 10-year-old 82/HiCap/250 serviced by Naim before selling it, simply because I wasn't happy selling it in less than 100% condition. I certainly would have made more money if I had not decided to have it serviced before selling. What is more, the buyer discovered a fault with the 82, which seems to have occurred during servicing by Naim, so I then got stung for a part of returning it to Salisbury from the buyer's address in Spain.
If you're going to sell your amps, sell them as they are. You should get a good price for them. I am happier with the non-Naim amps with which I replaced my Naims.
This all said, IMO the musical bottleneck in your system is your turntable, and the bass bottleneck is probably the speakers, so until you've fixed those, there's not much point changing amps.
a) I'm not suggesting you not listen to other stuff
b) But if you do like the Naim sound, a 52 is going to bring the biggest improvement you can get, and will improve the bass depth, power, and weight in the ways you suggest you'd like.
c) The deck would be the next place to look. The Klyde can certainly be bettered, but in the bass it has more than a Dynavector. And the Ekos will give more bass. As will other models.
d) My experience with Naim stuff needing recaps is the sound gets fuzzier. You actually get more bass unrecapped, but its not as clean or deep as after service. And you get less treble, with a bit more grain, before the recap. So yes, after a recap it's brighter. I've been able to send in hicap a, which I compared to hicap b, then received it back, and compare again. Most people making claims about the sound of a recap send there stuff away and tell you after its returned ten weeks later how much better it sounds. But how good do you really think aural memory is?
e) you will absolutely not get your money back on servicing. You'd be lucky to only lose 40% unless you are willing to wait a long time for your price.
b) But if you do like the Naim sound, a 52 is going to bring the biggest improvement you can get, and will improve the bass depth, power, and weight in the ways you suggest you'd like.
c) The deck would be the next place to look. The Klyde can certainly be bettered, but in the bass it has more than a Dynavector. And the Ekos will give more bass. As will other models.
d) My experience with Naim stuff needing recaps is the sound gets fuzzier. You actually get more bass unrecapped, but its not as clean or deep as after service. And you get less treble, with a bit more grain, before the recap. So yes, after a recap it's brighter. I've been able to send in hicap a, which I compared to hicap b, then received it back, and compare again. Most people making claims about the sound of a recap send there stuff away and tell you after its returned ten weeks later how much better it sounds. But how good do you really think aural memory is?
e) you will absolutely not get your money back on servicing. You'd be lucky to only lose 40% unless you are willing to wait a long time for your price.