Rachmaninov's Vespers

[tones]

..or, more correctly, the All-Night Easter Vigil. I see someone nice has put the whole of the greatest of all versions, that made in the 1960s by Alexander Sveschnikov and the RSFSR Academy Choir, on YouTube:

Russian Orthodox music is all a cappella choral, the lightness of sopranos pitted against the rumbling depth of basses. In the Nunc Dimittis (the song of Simeon, starting at 17:33), the basses descend to an astonishing low B flat, which causes standing waves in the floor. The Ave Maria that follows it is toe-curlingly gorgeous. In fact, the whole thing is brilliant, and considering that many of these people were good card-carrying Party members at the time, sung with such fervour that one realises that the soul of old Russia never really died.

I really that this is very different from the usual stuff that one finds in the music room, but it's worth a listen. Personally, I've never heard any recording with so much "soul", no matter how you interpret that word.

 

[Whaleblue]

Beautiful. 22:02 for the Ava Maria if you only have a few minutes to spare.

Very unseasonal though!

 

[tones]

Beautiful. 22:02 for the Ava Maria if you only have a few minutes to spare.

Very unseasonal though!

If it's seasonal you want, it doesn't come any better than this:

Listen the the best choir on the planet strut its stuff at 1:35:50 - and just listen to that bass line dance! Jack Bruce said that J.S. was the greatest bass player ever - I agree.

 

[mmaatt]

I have to agree, especially about the bass; one of my most played records (the 1987 Achive recording). Mind you the Harnoncourt version is a real ear opener.

mat

 

[tones]

I have to agree, especially about the bass; one of my most played records (the 1987 Achive recording). Mind you the Harnoncourt version is a real ear opener.

mat

The original Das Alte Werke one, Mat? Never got on with it. Some nice bits, but the "original instruments" business was in its infancy back then, and there was this rather thin, scrawny sound. Nicky H. was a pioneer, and pioneers blaze the trail for others to follow - the "standing on the shoulders of giants" syndrome. The big break seems to come with Gardiner's recording of the B Minor for Archiv. A critic (Gramophone, I think) remarked that, up to that point, he had made a distinction between "modern instruments" and "old instruments" versions. Suddenly, he said, that distinction had ceased to exist - it no longer made a difference.

 

[mmaatt]

Yes that's the one (recorded in 1973). I agree that the sound is difficult to get good results with, but it sounds every bit as good as the Gardiner version on my current vinyl set up. I'm pretty sure that even for 1973 the Harnoncourt version (and his cantatas for that matter, which I'm currently working my way through) is more like Bach intended it.

mat

 

[tones]

I'm pretty sure that even for 1973 the Harnoncourt version (and his cantatas for that matter, which I'm currently working my way through) is more like Bach intended it.

mat

I doubt it. More accurately (but IMHO still not completely correct), more like Bach would have heard it. Bach was an experimenter, keen to try new things, which got him perpetually into hot water with the Leipzig city fathers, who were forever trying to clip his wings and trying to save the money that Bach was so keen to spend for his desired "well-regulated church music". He would have loved the Monteverdi choir and the EBS, so much better than the ensembles with which he had to work (kids from the Thomanerschule, local motley crew of musicians). He had some good players at his disposal (trumpeter Gottfried Reiche), but he was an exception. I suspect that Bach would never have achieved the modern high standards, or anything like them - but he would have loved them, and I suspect he'd have gone for Gardiner/Suzuki every time. And he would have loved modern instruments, such as the possibilities afforded by piccolo trumpets.

The other thing is that the voices for which Bach wrote no longer exist - boys' voices broke much later in those days, so the alto parts would have been sung by these high-voiced adolescents, for which the modern counter-tenors are only an approximation.

Ultimately, IMHO, this is music for the ages, to be played and loved, in whatever manner personally preferred, ancient, modern, boys, not boys, whatever, not treated like a museum piece, to be respectfully dusted off occasionally and played in one "correct" way only. It's great that so many possibilities now exist. Never really got on with Nicky Harnoncourt (I have some of his vinyl from when they first came out), although I admire his pioneering work, but chacun à son goût.

 

[ian r]

I have the russian release from the late 70'2 originally on melodiya as I recall - I also agree it has a lot of cultural vibe attached to it or soul as was said by OP

 

[tones]

I have the russian release from the late 70'2 originally on melodiya as I recall - I also agree it has a lot of cultural vibe attached to it or soul as was said by OP

The original recording was made by Melodiya. Eurodisc released it as a 2-LP set (this is what I have) and HMV somehow managed to squeeze the lot on to a single LP. It then fell off the planet until it resurfaced in a French Musique du Monde release. Eurodisc released it on CD. There are a couple of versions now available on amazon.uk.

 

[ian r]

I expect the eurodisc has nice wide grooves for a fuller B flat experience. Yes mine is the HMV one. A slightly thick poorlly miked hazy recording

I recall it has plenty welly whilst lacking precision

 

[mmaatt]

I doubt it. More accurately (but IMHO still not completely correct), more like Bach would have heard it. Bach was an experimenter, keen to try new things, which got him perpetually into hot water with the Leipzig city fathers, who were forever trying to clip his wings and trying to save the money that Bach was so keen to spend for his desired "well-regulated church music". He would have loved the Monteverdi choir and the EBS, so much better than the ensembles with which he had to work (kids from the Thomanerschule, local motley crew of musicians). He had some good players at his disposal (trumpeter Gottfried Reiche), but he was an exception. I suspect that Bach would never have achieved the modern high standards, or anything like them - but he would have loved them, and I suspect he'd have gone for Gardiner/Suzuki every time. And he would have loved modern instruments, such as the possibilities afforded by piccolo trumpets.

The other thing is that the voices for which Bach wrote no longer exist - boys' voices broke much later in those days, so the alto parts would have been sung by these high-voiced adolescents, for which the modern counter-tenors are only an approximation.

Ultimately, IMHO, this is music for the ages, to be played and loved, in whatever manner personally preferred, ancient, modern, boys, not boys, whatever, not treated like a museum piece, to be respectfully dusted off occasionally and played in one "correct" way only. It's great that so many possibilities now exist. Never really got on with Nicky Harnoncourt (I have some of his vinyl from when they first came out), although I admire his pioneering work, but chacun à son goût.

Well I take your point about standards, but after a lifetime 30+ years of listening to Bach (not as a musician, but an artist whose life has been fundamentally enriched by Bach) it's in recent years I've come to really appreciate the Harnoncourt take to the point I now prefer boy sopranos in the choir whereas years ago I much preferred Gardiner and Suzuki. There is an immediacy and forcefulness which carries the musical content better IMO. And in any case the choirs and soloists Harnoncourt use are pretty high quality (Herrewegue the choir master) and not the motley crew you describe Bach himself stuck with.

I agree entirely that however you choose to listen that Bach is still so relevant and timeless today - we are lucky not to have to put up with the recordings from pre-1970's, or worse still be subjected to the prejudice of a Thomas Beecham towards Bach's music.

As you say everyone to their own (taste); and thanks for your knowledgeable comments and the Rachmaninov link. Happy listening,

mat

 

[tones]

... we are lucky not to have to put up with the recordings from pre-1970's

Although, to be fair, Mat, the pioneering work did start back then. I never really got on with Karl Richter's Bach (too bloated and slow), although I don't doubt his dedication to the Master. I learned to love the Bach cantatas through the Erato series Les grandes cantates de J.S. Bach, done by Fritz Werner. Werner used modern instruments, but his ensembles were small and he used non-bel canto soloists (no exaggerated vibrato). Some of the results are rather ordinary, but some are also very good - I still rate Werner's BWV140 among my favourites. And Werner had at his command Erato's star soloists, particularly Maurice André - and nobody played a trumpet quite like André. I was delighted when Erato released the whole set on CD, so I can relive my misspent youth!

 

[PsB]

Bach was an experimenter, keen to try new things (...) And he would have loved modern instruments, such as the possibilities afforded by piccolo trumpets.

(...)

Ultimately, IMHO, this is music for the ages, to be played and loved, in whatever manner personally preferred, ancient, modern, boys, not boys, whatever, not treated like a museum piece, to be respectfully dusted off occasionally and played in one "correct" way only. It's great that so many possibilities now exist. Never really got on with Nicky Harnoncourt (I have some of his vinyl from when they first came out), although I admire his pioneering work, but chacun à son goût.

I agree with some of your conclusion, in particular that Bach's music is great and robust enough to resist almost any orchestration or choice of instruments, including some of the decidedly stodgy offerings of the 60s.

The speculation about what Bach would have done with modern instruments has always struck me as a bit silly. Had Bach been born in an age where modern instruments existed, he would of course have composed modern music and invented a fabulous alternative to serialism or started a jazz group (or given his mathematical abilities become a quant analyst in the City or something).

I love most of the Harnoncourt or Leonhardt versions on Archiv, despite the occasionally weak singers or the horns going a bit off the rails from time to time. They were like a great blast of fresh air at the time, and compared to the more technically proficient versions we can find now somehow seem more balanced: not so many of the extremely fast tempi ("look at me, I can do it faster") for instance. I heard a Suzuki version the other day and it was played fast to the point of being very uninteresting.

 

[tones]

I love most of the Harnoncourt or Leonhardt versions on Archiv, despite the occasionally weak singers or the horns going a bit off the rails from time to time. They were like a great blast of fresh air at the time, and compared to the more technically proficient versions we can find now somehow seem more balanced: not so many of the extremely fast tempi ("look at me, I can do it faster") for instance. I heard a Suzuki version the other day and it was played fast to the point of being very uninteresting.

While I am an admirer of the pioneering work of Nicky and Gus, I'd never buy their stuff, but your point on tempi is a good one. Gardiner in particular has a choir that can perform miracles on command, and he sometimes pushes that too far (classic example, the opening chorale of BWV137 Lobet den Herren is, to my ears, taken far, far too fast).

I have the Leusink set, which is somewhat Nicky-like in that it sometimes feels somewhat insecure. However, there are some excellent performances in there, and at a bargain price too.