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Quad servicing, glue, ESL63s...

JTC

JTC

PFM Villager...
Hi folks,

It's common knowledge that 63s have some issues with the glue that's used. At what point was this acknowledged by Quad, and would a serviced pair (in this case 2014) be likely to have a different, less problematic adhesive? Just as arcing and EHT units seem to be the weak link for 57s, it does seem that the glue seems to be the 63s nemesis...

Anything else that might need looking at in a pair of 63s? Do they suffer EHT degradation? Any gotchas?

Thanks.
 
one of my 63s failed due to glue afer a few months then no problems for 14 years . the latest glue used on the latest 2912 etc is said to be the tops . and is used for repair on 63s etc
 
According to One Thing Audio the earliest 63s are very unlikely to suffer from glue problems caused by flexing panels as theirs are made from a more rigid material.
 
Marchbanks said:
According to One Thing Audio the earliest 63s are very unlikely to suffer from glue problems caused by flexing panels as theirs are made from a more rigid material.
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OTA make their own 63/29xx panels? I thought they only made 57 panels?
 
Dowser said:
OTA make their own 63/29xx panels? I thought they only made 57 panels?
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By ‘theirs’ I meant ‘panels belonging to the earliest 63s’. I don’t think OTA make their own 63 panels from scratch, they rebuild used ones. Hope I haven’t confused things even more!
 
I was hoping not to be asked that! I remembered it was to do with the colour of the panels, one period was black (definitely) and the other grey (I think.) But which?

That’s not being very helpful, so I’ve just peeked inside my very early ones and they are black. So it seems black=early=no glue problems likely.
 
Marchbanks said:
By ‘theirs’ I meant ‘panels belonging to the earliest 63s’. I don’t think OTA make their own 63 panels from scratch, they rebuild used ones. Hope I haven’t confused things even more!
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Thanks - I didn’t even know they rebuilt 63 panels! They are completely different from 57 panels.

For what it’s worth, I have serial number 85xx 63s (originally came with speaker clips rather than banana posts) - glue failed on all a few years back (scary but easy DIY fix).
 
Marchbanks said:
Absolutely they do. They’ve just done all of them on mine. Soon to be on the market, folks (shameless plug!)
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Thanks - did they sound the same afterwards? And do they re-coat them or just re-glue failing panels (if you know)? Their 57 panels got some bad press on here from a few members for both sounding different and not lasting long.

From my understanding & experience 57s and 63s have different weaknesses - 57s have failing EHT and tired/arc damaged panels, 63s are more a mechanical issue with the glue, although I am sure there are exceptions.

Edit to add: sorry, not trying to crap your impending sale! Just interested, I thought there were only Quad made replacement panels for 63/29xx series
 
Dowser said:
Thanks - did they sound the same afterwards? And do they re-coat them or just re-glue failing panels (if you know)? Their 57 panels got some bad press on here from a few members for both sounding different and not lasting long.

From my understanding & experience 57s and 63s have different weaknesses - 57s have failing EHT and tired/arc damaged panels, 63s are more a mechanical issue with the glue, although I am sure there are exceptions.

Edit to add: sorry, not trying to crap your impending sale! Just interested, I thought there were only Quad made replacement panels for 63/29xx series
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Not at all, I had no business mentioning the sale here anyway.

Mine were all recoated. I don’t believe any re-gluing was necessary (see my early model post above.) They had lost resistivity, resulting in lower output and peak distortion. They had originally been replaced by OTA fifteen years ago. OTA say they have changed their formulation in the last few years, and would expect them to last longer this time than last.

It’s difficult for me to compare before and after. I had been using the 63s with subs, then decided to go down the Tannoy road so put the Quads away for the summer, during which time I sold the subs. When I brought the 63s back out again to sell I realized there was a problem, so off they went to OTA. Now I’m listening to them again, but without subs, with a different amp and through ears now accustomed to Tannoys. I’m sure you see the problem!

Having said that, they sound terrific, and I think they may be improving daily. Might just be me of course. As they are sitting in a temporary testing-pre-sale position they are about a metre and a half from the listening position, a metre and a half from the side walls and two metres in front of the rear wall. In the centre of the image the rear wall is where the music seems to be coming from, curving round to the speakers themselves at extreme left and right. I never got anything like this effect when they were only a metre from the rear wall and close to the sides. This sums up the good and bad of ESLs for me - they sound stupendous, provided you can put them in the middle of your room! One of the reasons I decided to switch to Tannoys.

I’m sure OTA will be happy to supply any technical info you might want. When I had a chat I was surprised at, let’s just say, the strength of the links between them and Quad!!
 
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Update: glue formulation was changed sometime in the middle of 2014 - this is hot off the press from Rob at Quad.
 
rich46 said:
one of my 63s failed due to glue afer a few months then no problems for 14 years . the latest glue used on the latest 2912 etc is said to be the tops . and is used for repair on 63s etc
Click to expand...

My first post, hope it works! I was interested to hear your views on ESLs as a committed Quadhead and electrical engineer (me too)! I had a pair of ESL57s refurbed last year at OTA in Coventry and have formed the opinion that ESL57 panels are much more robust than those used in the ESL63, ESL989 etc., provided not overdriven or abused. My experience of panel failures over many years on both ESL63 and ESL989 suggest that glue failure is accelerated by sunlight and temperature cycling. When I discovered that close proximity to a central heating radiator appeared to cause panel failures, I moved them into a window bay. Unfortunately it was west facing and sunlight + UV exposure on the backs of the ESL989s seemed to kill them as well, plus the thermal cycling again. I used to pay the full repair price through Huntingdon but latterly have visited OTA in Coventry (4 panel refurbs in only 18 months and exclusively upper bass panels). The jury is out as to whether ionisation causes accelerated aging of the glue and recently I have adopted the practice of switching the ESLs off when not in use. After three bass panel refurbs in September (almost £500 at OTA), I decided enough was enough and traded them in for ESL2912s which should arrive next week. About 60% of the panels in my 989s were >15yrs old and surely it was only a matter of time before they failed. I ordered the ESL2912s after assurances from Rob Flain that the glue problem was a thing of the past and that the panel production process and glue had been significantly improved. I was quite surprised to learn that the 2912s are given a 48Hr soak test at Huntingdon to weed out panel failures on arrival in the UK and a figure of 10% was suggested as speaker failure rate whether 4 panels or 6 panels per speaker. Pity the person who pays full ticket price and receives a reworked loudspeaker. I hope time proves us correct in believing that panel reliability has been improved in the ESL2912s. How are you getting on with yours - presumably you've not had any panel failures so far. Do you keep them switched off when not in use?
 
I’d very much like to know if one thing and Quad use the same glue.
Marchbanks said:
Not at all, I had no business mentioning the sale here anyway.

Mine were all recoated. I don’t believe any re-gluing was necessary (see my early model post above.) They had lost resistivity, resulting in lower output and peak distortion. They had originally been replaced by OTA fifteen years ago. OTA say they have changed their formulation in the last few years, and would expect them to last longer this time than last.

It’s difficult for me to compare before and after. I had been using the 63s with subs, then decided to go down the Tannoy road so put the Quads away for the summer, during which time I sold the subs. When I brought the 63s back out again to sell I realized there was a problem, so off they went to OTA. Now I’m listening to them again, but without subs, with a different amp and through ears now accustomed to Tannoys. I’m sure you see the problem!

Having said that, they sound terrific, and I think they may be improving daily. Might just be me of course. As they are sitting in a temporary testing-pre-sale position they are about a metre and a half from the listening position, a metre and a half from the side walls and two metres in front of the rear wall. In the centre of the image the rear wall is where the music seems to be coming from, curving round to the speakers themselves at extreme left and right. I never got anything like this effect when they were only a metre from the rear wall and close to the sides. This sums up the good and bad of ESLs for me - they sound stupendous, provided you can put them in the middle of your room! One of the reasons I decided to switch to Tannoys.

I’m sure OTA will be happy to supply any technical info you might want. When I had a chat I was surprised at, let’s just say, the strength of the links between them and Quad!!
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What is recoating?

Rob Flain once told me there was no point in servicing ESL 63s until the panels start to loosen and you hear crackle.
 
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