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Puzzling results with ATC SCM50ASLT loudspeakers vs. previous system

Filian said:
No disagreement here, however it's useful to isolate the schools of thought. If the aim is superlative, musical sound, I think the evidence confirms one over the other.

The cluster of beliefs that includes amplitude or frequency sovereignty, mostly inaudible sources and electronics, and rooms or spaces as the virtually sole remaining contributor doesn't have a strong track record. This school fancies itself the objective camp but its results tie erratically to that superlative, musical sound. Beliefs are not uncommonly like that.

The more open-minded school that allows for the audibility of virtually everything and that explores no end of influences, including sources, electronics, tuning, and all-domain behavior, tends to admit that surprisingly or even shockingly real playback sound. In loosely correlating long experience with the standing record of high-end reviewing this becomes obviously clear.

This is also the rational expectation. However it's the aggressive denialism of the first upstart camp against the latter long-standing camp that clinches the deal. Here again studies among professionals confirms the connection between best practice and best sound, while as far as I can see the objectivist movement hasn't that follow-on repeatability and correlation.

The good news is that progress continues and that the best sound is only a matter of finding it by ear. We don't have to always arrive at unreliable predictions that this sounds like that. We can and should go listen.
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If you set up a straw man, it's pretty easy to knock him down.
 
Matthew J said:
Could you describe your room and the loudspeaker position which worked?
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Not the room you're asking about but this method may help you at least find some improvement (but you're definitely in need of first reflection point absorption panels or other absorbing materials)



Excerpt from the product manual:
The subjective performance of any monitor loudspeaker will be influenced by the acoustic character of the room in which it is used, and its position within the room. Most often monitors are installed in rooms which are comfortable to sit and talk in. A mixture of carpets, curtains and soft furnishings will help ensure that middle and high frequencies are reasonably well controlled. There may however be low frequency problems; either too much or too little bass. To minimise low frequency problems the monitors should be kept away from corners or walls. Start with them positioned on appropriate stands 1 metre from the side walls and 2 metres from the back wall.

Monitors with an asymmetric (offset) driver array should be positioned such that the midrange driver and tweeter are inboard. If the monitors are to be placed in any form of cabinet, adequate side and top clearance for cooling airflow must be provided. Alternatively, the Amplifiers should be removed and installed remotely. All ATC 3-way loudspeakers are designed with the mid-range dome as the reference acoustic axis. With this in mind, the loudspeakers should be positioned with the mid-range dome at, or slightly below ear level.

How I go about positioning my speakers (laser is pretty handy for this):
  • On the speaker end of the room, find and mark the middle of the the room (2m off the back wall) with a piece of masking tape on the floor.
  • Do the same on the listening end of the floor, again using masking tape
  • Place the 1st speaker 2m off back wall and 1m off side wall
  • Measure the distance from the speaker cabinet back to the center point you've marked.
  • Place the 2nd speaker 2m off back wall, same distance from center point (don't measure from side wall)
  • Play some LF track or signal and walk down the center of the room delineated by the two pieces of masking tape on the floor
  • Somewhere along that line you'll find the LF response is better than elsewhere. That's your listening position.
  • Fine tune toe-in to taste. I don't like the speakers pointed directly at the center of the listening position (personal preference). As you toe-out you'll find the soundstage widens until it eventually collapses. Toe back in till you find your happy medium.
  • To ensure toe-in of both speakers is identical, measure distance of inner corner and outer corner of both speakers to center line at listening position. Inner corner measurements should be equal, as should outer corner measurements. If they're not, your speakers are firing off-axis
  • Finally, place a laser on top of one speaker, pointing the laser to the center of the wall behind the listening position. Mark the spot with some masking tape
  • Do the same with the 2nd speaker, adjusting spikes to have the laser pointer point to the same height as the first.
That should get you to a good starting point for placing your 50's.
 
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Eoin said:
I’ve no skin in the game on this, however I’ve got a reasonable set of sources and a freshly serviced quad 606. Using a £60 pair of small Ruark standmounts the presentation was extraordinary.

I’d bought them cheap for my brother and popped them in to check.

So with good electronics even less expensive speakers can be very good.

Whether the reverse is true (do high end speakers NEED good electronics?) I could not comment on.
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Perhaps the speakers being small enough to not interact with the room too much and sensible volumes are key....

There are a lot of other things highlighted in this thread in much more detail than i can describe or be bothered to type;)

In saying that i have heard large speakers sound ok, in smaller rooms at reasonable levels.

The Wam show,highlighted rooms and interactions for me.

Some highly regarded speakers in small hotel rooms being played way too loud and wrong selection of music possibly making matters worse....

Chap whom had the biggest room and space for the klipsch cornwalls to breathe and sensible levels was achieving some nice sounds.

NS1000/NS2000 were good with both loud and subdued,As u may expect sealed studio monitors to be...
 
irb said:
If you set up a straw man, it's pretty easy to knock him down.
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Easier than outlawing whole classes of products because of a desperate belief they're snake oil and their satisfied owners delusional? Because I doubt anything's that easy.
 
Filian said:
Incorrect, I'm afraid. Distortion has been studied and tested and there's scant correlation between it and great musical realism. Consider that lowly little LS3/5a for one example of many. It's a distortion generator in relative terms yet it's a fabulously musical speaker and has been for decades. (Since you mention it, the same is true for, yes, great record playback and tube amplification too. They refuse to be obsoleted in top-level sound. Why is this?)

The question goes to how can the little BBC monitor do this? I'm sure some know. The rest of the audio world will have to be contented just hearing it because the secret is not printed on a sign as you walk into the showroom.

No, it's not simple distortion.
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I am not sure technically if limited and non-flat frequency response counts as distortion but I include that of course. Some distortion is more audible than others for sure but it is all important in the quest for high fidelity. I would be interested in your references for "Distortion has been studied and tested and there's scant correlation between it and great musical realism" studied by whom?

I ran Linn Kans for many years and loved them; limited bass depth but when carefully positioned I found them excellent which I put down to clean bass and a tautness to the sound which I missed in many other loudspeakers. I am not sure if the Kans deteriorated or I changed, but eventually I got frustrated with the limited bass especially for things like an acoustic double bass where you need to hear the tune and the depth of the sound; poor systems either don't go low enough or smear the sound together. Replaced with Naim SBLs which I am very happy with. Not LS3/5a but I perhaps know what you are driving at when talking about musical realism; but in the end there are trade-offs with all loudspeakers and it is a matter of what you are comfortable with and what works well in your room. Also, for example, huge fan of early Quad 11L and 12L which are different in character but very neutral and brilliant for things like piano recitals, prefer them to a lot of bigger loudspeakers.

"Simple distortion" is your term not mine; the point remains that loudspeakers are highly distorting compared to digital sources or amplifiers and that is why they make so much difference to the sound.
 
onlyconnect said:
I would be interested in your references for "Distortion has been studied and tested and there's scant correlation between it and great musical realism" studied by whom?
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If you knew would you accede that the belief it correlates directly to sound quality is only that?
onlyconnect said:
"Simple distortion" is your term not mine; the point remains that loudspeakers are highly distorting compared to digital sources or amplifiers and that is why they make so much difference to the sound.
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So there are linear relationships between distortion and quality of sound? I'm curious what those may be.
 
onlyconnect said:
loudspeakers are highly distorting compared to digital sources or amplifiers and that is why they make so much difference to the sound.
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You can put it the other way - loudspeakers are mostly just boxes with the drivers, with the parameters not so different (and Seas can make your own spec if needed). They’re mostly immune to what’s making a distortion (and that is HF noise). Not so for the electronics with clocks, d/a conversion, output stages etc.
 
Phyztech said:
You can put it the other way - loudspeakers are mostly just boxes with the drivers, with the parameters not so different (and Seas can make your own spec if needed). They’re mostly immune to what’s making a distortion (and that is HF noise). Not so for the electronics with clocks, d/a conversion, output stages etc.
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I think this is word salad? Paul Simon said cars are cars which is kind of right but the implication that all cars are the same is of course wrong
 
Filian said:
If you knew would you accede that the belief it correlates directly to sound quality is only that?

So there are linear relationships between distortion and quality of sound? I'm curious what those may be.
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Your question makes no sense to me, sorry. Knew what?

You didn't answer my question about the source of your data.
 
Filian said:
Easier than outlawing whole classes of products because of a desperate belief they're snake oil and their satisfied owners delusional? Because I doubt anything's that easy.
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I was just trying to encourage a little nuance. But I should have saved my breath, I guess.
 
evand said:
  • On the speaker end of the room, find and mark the middle of the the room (2m off the back wall) with a piece of masking tape on the floor.
  • Do the same on the listening end of the floor, again using masking tape
  • Place the 1st speaker 2m off back wall and 1m off side wall
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Why 2m and 1m of front and side walls?
 
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