Puzzling results with ATC SCM50ASLT loudspeakers vs. previous system
- Thread starter Matthew J
- Start date
Just discovered that the Trichord Orca pre-amp was £1650 in 2002 (without the NC PSU which mine has).Your system, though 'cobbled' together isn't exactly budget gear, the Alectos were £2k a piece in 1997- todays price allowing for inflation is anyone's guess but conservative estimate is £4 k so that's £12 k worth of amplification incl the Orca, factor in the 'new' price of R50s and you are well into ATC territory. So on reflection maybe you shouldn't be too surprised. Or disappointed
Anyone know what the Orca's output impedance is? I can't find a manual online and my used unit did not come with one.
PS: Possibly 33 ohms according to the summary of a Wam page from this Google search:
But that could be referring to anything really. Shame the Wam is no more and the pages were never archived and that page was not cached by Google.
What a load of absolute tosh, speakers make the biggest difference. Are you Russ Andrews in disguise
You should be able to distinguish speaker presentation/character from the ultimate sound quality (level, grade, whatever). As for the character it’s true that speaker tend to impose it and it’s almost impossible to change. If you prefer horns (Klipsch or other), corner performance of Audio Note boxes or ATC character (and there’s such thing as ATC house sound for sure - just open youtube and you can hear they all share some presentation peculiarities) it may be a defining factor. Then, there is obvious thing as speaker size, they can be large or small, and it’s impossible to get too big sound from too small monitors.
But that’s not about sound quality per se. As somebody mentioned above and I tend to agree, sq is mostly about the presentation realism. There should be a strong illusion of actual performance in front of you. Voices in particular should be almost indistinguishable from the real people speaking in the room. There is usual trick at good hi-fi events when first an actual band is playing in the room, sound engineer in parallel makes a record and quick mix and after that they’re playing it on a system. And also you should experience pure Magic when it’s almost physically difficult to unplug from the system. Believe me, all that is possible with many-many speaker brands.
That’s completely different from what you said though. I’ve had a £2k speaker, I know have a pair that are about £8k. They are a lot better, far more capable technically.
Diminishing returns can kick in at any level but speakers are expensive to make. In the digital domain I’d always allocate strong budget to speakers knowing there are capable DAC/Pre amps for sensible money.
In 40 years I've yet to encounter a single experienced listener working with the better gear who hasn't agreed that very, very good sources and electronics are more important than loudspeakers. Even speaker designers will tell you that.What a load of absolute tosh, speakers make the biggest difference. Are you Russ Andrews in disguise
Speakers have more to do with size and scale than with some as-yet undetermined sound quality the speaker-first guys (and their typically cheap AVR's) assume are so important. If bass and loudness are all you can appreciate then so be it, but for musical refinement and meaning it's always what's going into speakers and how that matters most.
ex brickie
pfm Member
I don’t think my comments will particularly help the OP (unless the ATCs can be taken back) but I’ll throw in my tuppence worth
First as a general point I agree with @Woodface . My experience too is that speakers make the biggest difference to the overall sound. Irrespective of whether you call it ‘sound quality’ they have more impact on the character of the sound than any other component. I do subscribe to ‘rubbish in rubbish out’ but the change in character has never been as great for me with a change of CD, amplifier etc as changing the speakers. They have such different characters they can amaze or disappoint easily with the very same electronics. I’ve demoed many many pairs of speakers with the same electronics and been very surprised how different they sound. Hence when people come on here raving about PMC speakers for example I roll my eyes as I find them dry and uninteresting. But that’s me - some don’t find them that way
What exacerbates this is having the same speakers for years. Your ears/brain really do get attuned to ‘that’ sound and it is quite hard to adjust to a different sound.
So I wouldn’t change the electronics if you don’t like the speaker character. The overall change won’t change that much. You might get more detail, soundstage etc but it won’t change the ATC character by much.
This bit won’t help but I’ve always been disappointed with larger size ATCs (50s). I’ve owned and loved small ATC standmounts, even the passive 40s (MkI) and their integrated amps. I was just very disappointed with passive 50s. Did nothing for me
I’ve no idea whether the OP can change the speakers without losing out but the range of actives is more limited - otherwise you have to factor in an amp. Don’t throw more money at electronics if you don’t like the signature sound of the ATCs!
First as a general point I agree with @Woodface . My experience too is that speakers make the biggest difference to the overall sound. Irrespective of whether you call it ‘sound quality’ they have more impact on the character of the sound than any other component. I do subscribe to ‘rubbish in rubbish out’ but the change in character has never been as great for me with a change of CD, amplifier etc as changing the speakers. They have such different characters they can amaze or disappoint easily with the very same electronics. I’ve demoed many many pairs of speakers with the same electronics and been very surprised how different they sound. Hence when people come on here raving about PMC speakers for example I roll my eyes as I find them dry and uninteresting. But that’s me - some don’t find them that way
What exacerbates this is having the same speakers for years. Your ears/brain really do get attuned to ‘that’ sound and it is quite hard to adjust to a different sound.
So I wouldn’t change the electronics if you don’t like the speaker character. The overall change won’t change that much. You might get more detail, soundstage etc but it won’t change the ATC character by much.
This bit won’t help but I’ve always been disappointed with larger size ATCs (50s). I’ve owned and loved small ATC standmounts, even the passive 40s (MkI) and their integrated amps. I was just very disappointed with passive 50s. Did nothing for me
I’ve no idea whether the OP can change the speakers without losing out but the range of actives is more limited - otherwise you have to factor in an amp. Don’t throw more money at electronics if you don’t like the signature sound of the ATCs!
Fourlegs
Trade: WAVE High Fidelity digital cables
The passive and active versions are a world apart can’t one can’t judge the active versions (ie what the OP has bought) by only having listened to the passive version.
ex brickie
pfm Member
I’m happy to accept that - but the principle that speakers have the biggest effect on sonic signature still stands
Certainly going back to the old system has been interesting and mostly for the difference in character than replay fidelity (although there are differences in that regard).
The option to return the ATCs expires on Wednesday.
If someone wants a pair of ATCs then I can't imagine why they'd choose passive if an active version of that model were available.
The option to return the ATCs expires on Wednesday.
If someone wants a pair of ATCs then I can't imagine why they'd choose passive if an active version of that model were available.
What an incredibly snobby post I think you’ll find I was talking about the digital domain. I have a very nice TT thanks & the rest of my system is pretty good. The interface between speakers & room has always been key.
There are quite a few on here who share my views. I used to be quite source first in outlook but I’ve changed my mind as technology has advanced..
I do think the OP probably does need to look at his pre-amp but the speakers may just not be to his taste.
So the system in play now is the complete old system and after some more listening I'll go back to the ATCs but this time using the Trichord Orca pre-amp (even with the slight buzz) instead of a direct connection between DAC and loudspeakers.
I acknowledge that an analysis of absolute fidelity is not possible given the room acoustics.
I acknowledge that an analysis of absolute fidelity is not possible given the room acoustics.
In today’s other news the earth is still flat.
Agree...
Its a shame that they are active as swapping a valve amp in may make them more listenable so to speak....
On my ns1000 both standard and active found valves gave me what i wanted.
On another note a lot of my vintage speakers use the r50s B110 /T27 and work ok with ss and valves...
The active meridian m2 have two and are everyday listenable also...
duckworp
pfm Member
Maybe in the archaic world of turntables this is true, and of course was the convenient mantra of Linn in the 1980s. But it is simply not true in the digital domain. The difference between cheap and expensive digital sources is small. Very small compared to the world of turntables where there are/were vast differences in SQ. And hence today it has become much more about the amp and speakers, and of course the room, as we have been discussing here.
S-Man
StrivingON
That’s exactly my experience as well. Ported ATCs sound wrong to me. That’s why, in other thread, I recommended caution before changing from 40s to 50s.
I would also take a pair of SCM7s with very well integrated dual subs over SCM50(A)s!
There is no reason why the Cambridge Audio speakers shouldn’t be good. Falcon Audio have a reputation for getting well liked sound from the drivers. Transmission line bass isn’t my favourite, but I can see that if you get used to it and like it, it’s very hard to beat.
If you also include dac and network for the streamer, that’s not true
My throwaway wiim mini and smsl su1, has come up against a very expensive streamer, and there was not much in it at all.
Sound per pound pretty much unbeatable......