Pros and cons of active speakers

[tuga]

That of course may be true, although I can honestly say that I wanted them to work for me, really wanted them to. I have a Naim high end/LP12 system into Obs 2 and was very keen to reduce the number of boxes in my room, which is at ridiculous ‘Wife enraging’ levels.

I don’t know what obs2s are but it is only logical that if you compare large quasi full range speakers with standmounts and you value scale, extension and impact then you are likely to be disappointed.

I am not saying threat the Kiis and D&Ds and Genelecs are perfect, and most importantly they may not suit many people’s preferred presentation.
Historically pro studio speakers are not commonly well regarded amongst audiophiles (with a few exceptions), although that seems to be changing with the advent of computer audio and perhaps a younger generation joining the hobby...

 

[h.g.]

What is ‘big scale’ the 8Cs are completely full-range 20Hz-20kHz in room with no ‘boom’ for many customers it is the first time they have enjoyed real bass in their room, add to that their cardioid response, constant directivity, placement close to boundaries and adjustability.

"Big scale" is likely to require clean high SPLs which is the big trade-off when it comes to a cardioid radiation pattern for the octave or two above 80/100 Hz where there is a lot of musical energy and transients. The radiation pattern is created by sound cancellation dictating lots of cone area and displacement to get enough clean SPL to the listening position. In addition one of the benefits of the radiation pattern is driving the room less which will tend to make the perceived sound level lower.

For clean direct sound when sitting 4m or so away in a room one is probably looking at something more like the 2 x 12" woofers of the Genelec W371A (actually 12" and 14"). Possibly 2 x 10" but both the Kii and the D&D are marginal at best in this respect. The radiation pattern has some real benefits but it comes at a cost in terms of clean SPL and increased size and complexity.

 

[matfff]

How can you ‘listen wrong’ I would like to know exactly why Mat found them so objectionable when they are ( one of ) if not the most transparent loudspeakers currently available.
As CK said if perhaps you are used to an extremely coloured sound…
Keith

I wouldn’t say ‘objectionable’, I just didn’t enjoy listening to music through them as much. Probably a combination of dodgy hearing and familiarity with current system. But three days was enough to know that on favourite music, the thrill had gone, to miss quote Roy Hawkins.

 

[matfff]

Historically pro studio speakers are not commonly well regarded amongst audiophiles (with a few exceptions), although that seems to be changing with the advent of computer audio and perhaps a younger generation joining the hobby...

Lol, so I’m to old and out of date? Both true, unfortunately!

 

[Cereal Killer]

That of course may be true, although I can honestly say that I wanted them to work for me, really wanted them to. I have a Naim high end/LP12 system into Obs 2 and was very keen to reduce the number of boxes in my room, which is at ridiculous ‘Wife enraging’ levels.

It was a bit like that when they were initially setup in my (now old) room. Was using a hi-end setup; Aavik U-300 amp with integrated DAC and phono module, full EWA reference level wiring loom and some bespoke speakers.
At first we were rather underwhelmed (Mrs CK especially, she shook her head, giving them a strong thumbs down) but then we decided to apply and setup a target curves near to flat from 250hz up.
currently use something I've dubbed as the Harmon Studio curve (my invention, an amalgamation of a tamed Harmon All-Users curve to 250Hz then flat to 32Khz.

Hz +db
30 6.0
40 5.9
50 5.5
63 4.9
80 3.7
100 2.5
125 1.3
160 0.6
200 0.2
250 0
1000 0
32000 0


As soon as this was applied, everything fell into place.

 

[AndyU]

The D&Ds actually have high measured distortion at lower frequencies, as do the Kiis - the latter actually need inbuilt limiters. This is acknowledged by the guy that has given them a favourable review, see the link below. And looking at the result he gets in his room it’s not exactly impressive either; a huge dip over the two octaves above 100 Hz and a 12db peak at 30Hz. I would be suspicious of claims that these speakers can be placed anywhere in a room and will fix all known problems.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/

 

[h.g.]

Are Obs 2s Shahinian Obelisk 2s? These look to have a rather unconventional radiation pattern which may have a bearing on Matt's findings.

 

[tuga]

Ah, the classic ‘you’re listening all wrong’ argument….

PS I remember that one well from the 1980s…

If someone doesn’t like something and prefers something else then it is pointless to argue otherwise. Taste is what it is.

On the other hand that person’s taste is his own and whatever his opinion it is not universal

 

[tuga]

Lol, so I’m to old and out of date? Both true, unfortunately!

Most of us are middle aged, and sceptical of new tech. It took me a few years before finally embracing digital room correction, but now I would struggle to live without it, even the very light-touch level of EQ that I use.

I agree with @h.g. that the semi-omni dispersion characteristics of your speakers together with their size-related capabilities are the likely reasons for you not being impressed with the D&Ds

 

[Tony L]

If someone doesn’t like something and prefers something else then it is pointless to argue otherwise. Taste is what it is.

On the other hand that person’s taste is his own and whatever his opinion it is not universal

Absolutely. The purpose of any hi-fi system IMHO is to make music sound good to its owner in a way that opens musical doors and expands their taste. Some line on a graph, self-professed internet expert’s opinion, or salesman’s patter has no relevance to that. It is a personal thing and I’ll never understand some people’s taste, but if they find music that interests them with that tool then I have no issue.

PS I’d personally argue a quick look through someone’s music collection is the best way to ascertain how good their stereo is. The more broad and deep the better IMHO.

 

[Tony L]

Most of us are middle aged, and sceptical of new tech.

I’d take issue with that. Many of us here on this site have a very deep understanding of the technology but take a ‘political’ stance as we believe so firmly in sustainable and green ways of approaching things. I rule a lot of stuff out as it is simply not going to last and will end up as plastic shards in a sea turtle in 20 years or so as the company will almost certainly not be around that long, and even if they are they won’t be able to source the failed BGA chip, LCD panel or whatever. When it comes to a technology as mature as audio I’m far more tempted to buy classic kit with schematics in the public domain that if even if I can’t fix or service myself (mostly I can) are certainly serviceable by independent repair. This really is one of the bedrocks this whole website is built upon. Truly great hi-fi is now investment-grade just like the best guitars, watches etc. They are long-term sustainable and will never end up in landfill.

PS Buy your own sea turtle here: WWF Sea Turtle Adoption.

 

[tuga]

The D&Ds actually have high measured distortion at lower frequencies, as do the Kiis - the latter actually need inbuilt limiters. This is acknowledged by the guy that has given them a favourable review, see the link below. And looking at the result he gets in his room it’s not exactly impressive either; a huge dip over the two octaves above 100 Hz and a 12db peak at 30Hz. I would be suspicious of claims that these speakers can be placed anywhere in a room and will fix all known problems.

https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/dutch_dutch_8c/

Many claims are made by people who ignore the physics.
No single speaker topology works well anywhere in the room.

Both the Kiis and the D&Ds sport narrow constant directivity which whilst capable of more accurately transfixing the signal/recording at the listening spot, with improved tonal balance and sharper phantom images, the fact that they interact less with the room results in reduced envelopment and a narrower soundstage effect which is much loved by a large number of audiophiles.
The D&Ds were specifically designed to work well close to the wall behind them and on top of that they are bundled with room EQ capabilities.

But a speaker’s performance potential is defined by its topology, and one cannot expect a midsized box with 2x 8” woofers to have the same performance as a large speaker.

And accuracy is not a guarantee of enjoyment.

 

[matfff]

When it comes to a technology as mature as audio I’m far more tempted to buy classic kit with schematics in the public domain that if even if I can’t fix or service myself (mostly I can) are certainly serviceable by independent repair.

It’s everywhere Tony. All equipment on the farm, we can repair ourselves……but it’s all old. Modern equipment is completely different. It used to be that when you bought a tractor, after a short warranty period to protect against gross manufacturing problems, the relationship with the vendor was largely over. Now, it has only just begun. I’m not sure how widely known it is, but all modern farm tech is completely vendor/manufacturer service/repair only, you darn’t touch it as it is so software dependant. We have a contracting company come in to do the harvesting/silaging and if one of their units goes down, it just sits there in the middle of the field until an authorised service agent can turn up with his lap top, which can take days and days. It’s called progress.

 

[tuga]

I’d take issue with that. Many of us here on this site have a very deep understanding of the technology but take a ‘political’ stance as we believe so firmly in sustainable and green ways of approaching things. I rule a lot of stuff out as it is simply not going to last and will end up as plastic shards in a sea turtle in 20 years or so as the company will almost certainly not be around that long, and even if they are they won’t be able to source the failed BGA chip, LCD panel or whatever. When it comes to a technology as mature as audio I’m far more tempted to buy classic kit with schematics in the public domain that if even if I can’t fix or service myself (mostly I can) are certainly serviceable by independent repair. This really is one of the bedrocks this whole website is built upon. Truly great hi-fi is now investment-grade just like the best guitars, watches etc. They are long-term sustainable and will never end up in landfill.

PS Buy your own sea turtle here: WWF Sea Turtle Adoption.

Audiophilia is never about a one time purchase, and can never be eco-friendly.
I am as green as the next guy but I don’t delude myself, even if there are good practices which may reduce the negative impact of our hobby.

 

[tuga]

I’d personally argue a quick look through someone’s music collection is the best way to ascertain how good their stereo is. The more broad and deep the better IMHO.

Audiophilia is love of sound and gear. One’s musical collection may say a lot about that person’s interest in music but it doesn’t have a direct correlation with the quality of the system. And is that objective quality or subjective quality? if the latter then it is pointless to discuss because it is a personal, non-transmissible call.

I am allergic to electronic music and instruments, and I have only a handful of CDs with some electronic sound (e.g Radiohead). Perhaps my system has been setup to sound better with acoustic music, perhaps it sounds just as good with techno. It depends on who you ask.

In my view and experience, graphs and even a light understanding of the tech are just as helpful for someone striving for accuracy as they are for someone looking for a very specific presentation. I am convinced that the great divide between subjectivists and objectivists comes from the former’s lack of understanding of the tech and the latter’S unwillingness to accept that accuracy is not a universal goal and that the journey is to some audiophiles as or more important than the destination

 

[Tony L]

It’s everywhere Tony.

Agreed, but so is pressure to change. The Right To Repair movement is having significant impact at present and farming tech is one of the major front-lines. America is leading the way with many states starting to legislate in favour of independent repair etc despite a lot of push-back from John Deere etc.

Audiophilia is never about a one time purchase, and can never be eco-friendly.
I am as green as the next guy but I don’t delude myself, even if there are good practices which may reduce the negative impact of our hobby.

I’d argue I put back more than I consume. I buy classic kit that doesn’t work or needs service and do the best job I possibly can to restore it to as-new functionality hopefully adding value as I go. My TD-124, Quad 303s, JR149s, Leak Stereo 20, TL12 Plus, Verdier Control B, Pass Aleph 3, Tannoys etc are all in better service condition now than when I bought them. They are all pretty much reset to ‘as-new’ condition, so good for decades more use. I do the same with classic vintage 8 bit computers as best I can too.

My problem is I’m a bit of a hoarder so tend to keep stuff unused rather than move it on, but I do sell some stuff now and again! I view it as a hobby rather than a business, hence the hoarding, but an underlying aim is to help push the Right To Repair movement and encourage others to think about hi-fi in a more modern, green and sustainable way. I certainly think this is the new way of thinking. The typical hi-fi ‘new-box-opening consumerism’ seems very old fashioned to me now, and to be honest it always has done. An environmentally irresponsible way of looking at a fundamentally simple question.

 

[Tony L]

I am convinced that the great divide between subjectivists and objectivists comes from the former’s lack of understanding of the tech and the latter’S unwillingness to accept that accuracy is not a universal goal and that the journey is to some audiophiles as or more important than the destination

Yes, I’d agree with that fully. I tend to argue here more from a subjectivist angle, but that is due to the absolutism and dogmatism of many on the objectivist side that comes over as so arrogant, and online at least is so often based on partial or flawed understanding. In truth I lie somewhere in the middle-ground between the two.

 

[RichardAusten]

I would go by the actual sound quality and more importantly your preference of sound over allowing the technology to lead you. I have auditioned ATC a lot and bought an amplifier based upon auditions with an ATC but I preferred the actual sound of a passive speaker and with single-ended amplifiers. If I thought the Active ATCs sounded better I would have bought them instead. The standard advice is to listen and see if they line up with your preferences - I like a lot of different kinds of speakers and speaker designs - in the end, it's about the weaknesses you perceive and whether you can live with them.

 

[SteveS1]

I would go by the actual sound quality and more importantly your preference of sound over allowing the technology to lead you. I have auditioned ATC a lot and bought an amplifier based upon auditions with an ATC but I preferred the actual sound of a passive speaker and with single-ended amplifiers. If I thought the Active ATCs sounded better I would have bought them instead. The standard advice is to listen and see if they line up with your preferences - I like a lot of different kinds of speakers and speaker designs - in the end, it's about the weaknesses you perceive and whether you can live with them.

It's a good point. The case for active is often presented as obvious and the simplicity certainly has something going for it. Yet passive systems still dominate and it can't all be put down to cost, as ATC and others offer some systems that are very competitive alongside exotic passive set ups.

I have yet to hear one that I find compelling for my own purposes, however much I've enjoyed them.

 

[Tony L]

Yet passive systems still dominate and it can't be all put down to cost as ATC and others offer some systems that are very competitive alongside exotic passive set ups.

I suspect once we are in the realm of high-end audio passive is almost always more expensive, e.g. if someone was considering a passive pair of ATC 50s I’m pretty certain they would be paying more for an appropriately high-end power amp than the active amp-packs cost, i.e. they’d stay passive in order to use their Krell, Levinson, ARC, Pass, Accuphase, CJ, or whatever.