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Priti Patel: Undisclosed Meetings in Israel

Unreferenced in the above post, the information comes from +972 magazine.

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Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox youths from a fringe religious group took to the streets of Jerusalem on Sunday, causing traffic mayhem and shutting down the capital’s light rail service to protest the jailing of young seminary students for draft-dodging. The demonstrators blocked the main entrance to the capital for three hours.

The fresh disruptions sparked anger, with public figures calling on police to take a tougher stance against the protesters.

Police used force to try and disperse the protesters, some of whom clashed with angry motorists and resisted attempts by police to remove them. They also used water cannons and a foul-smelling skunk spray.

Fury as ultra-Orthodox demonstrators block Jerusalem entrance for 3 hours - The Times Of Israel
 
T
maxflinn said:
Hundreds of ultra-Orthodox youths from a fringe religious group took to the streets of Jerusalem on Sunday, causing traffic mayhem and shutting down the capital’s light rail service to protest the jailing of young seminary students for draft-dodging. The demonstrators blocked the main entrance to the capital for three hours.

The fresh disruptions sparked anger, with public figures calling on police to take a tougher stance against the protesters.

Police used force to try and disperse the protesters, some of whom clashed with angry motorists and resisted attempts by police to remove them. They also used water cannons and a foul-smelling skunk spray.

Fury as ultra-Orthodox demonstrators block Jerusalem entrance for 3 hours - The Times Of Israel
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This is not accurate.
I don't think that this is important to the PFMers, but you put it here.
These orthodox are free of serving the IDF. In order to get cleared of service, all they have to do according the law is to come to the IDF recruitment office and declare that they are learning Torah in "yeshiva". These criminals are opposing this very simple task. Those who didn't report to the IDF and was not drafted, were put in jail which is the very right place for them. Not only not serving the IDF, not only opposing the very easy task to get cleared of service, they have the nerve to shut down the city every second day. There is also a big question if all of those that declare on studying Torah, are really doing so. The yeshivas get budgets from the government according to the number of pupils. several cheatings about this were found and I am not sure that the authorities are investigating this with the efforts they should.

I think that the police is too gentle with these criminals whom contribution to the nation is big zero.

Arye
 
Why do they oppose making the declaration (that they are learning the Torah in yeshiva) Arye?

It sounds like an innocuous requirement, so what's their side of the story?
 
droodzilla said:
Why do they oppose making the declaration (that they are learning the Torah in yeshiva) Arye?

It sounds like an innocuous requirement, so what's their side of the story?
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https://www.timesofisrael.com/hundreds-of-ultra-orthodox-demonstrators-disrupt-jerusalem-traffic/

Auerbach had announced on Sunday morning that the demonstrators would return to the streets to defend the “dignity of the Torah.”
Click to expand...

At the rabbi’s instruction, Auerbach’s followers refuse to show up to the draft office to apply for a deferral or exemption from the army. Followers of other rabbis do receive the exemptions and are therefore not arrested.
Click to expand...

Arye
 
I would put the lot of them in prison and make them work, producing something useful for society. They live in a country in which their own security is guaranteed by other people who (by law) must dedicate 3 years of their lives to military service, some of whom get killed or maimed. Absolute parasites!
 
PaulMB and Arye. Neither of you have attempted to answer my question.

What's the reasoning of the protesters? Why do they refuse to request the exemption - a seemingly innocuous requirement? Is it some point of religious principle? Are they actually sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and using religious principle as a pretext?

What's behind their stance?
 
If that's what they're doing I would certainly applaud it. At this stage I'm just curious to understand their motivation.

If they're conscientious objectors it appears there is already provision for them to request an exemption, so something else must be going on.
 
droodzilla said:
PaulMB and Arye. Neither of you have attempted to answer my question.

What's the reasoning of the protesters? Why do they refuse to request the exemption - a seemingly innocuous requirement? Is it some point of religious principle? Are they actually sympathetic to the Palestinian cause and using religious principle as a pretext?

What's behind their stance?
Click to expand...
I have answered your question but you don't get it and I don't blame you. You have to be used to this kind of excuses:

"the demonstrators would return to the streets to defend the “dignity of the Torah.”"
Hard to understand, but this is what it is: defending the dignity of the Torah.
Sad that they are not defending the dignity of women with the same way.

Arye
 
Arye do you think they're sincere about defending the dignity of the Torah?

If so, I get it (without necessarily agreeing with it).

I just get the feeling there's more going on (e.g. PaulMB's post was extremely hostile).

If there isn't, fair enough.

Anyway, taking the story at face value, my view is that they have a right to peaceful protest. The State has a right to punish them if they're breaking the law. There's room for debate about whether the use of smelly water cannons is a proportionate response (it looks heavy-handed to me).
 
I'm not sure I can answer your very reasonable question. But I think what it is, is that they refuse to even declare they are studying the Torah and so can't fulfill their obligation as Israeli citizens to do national service, because it should be taken as as automatic. Some of them refuse to recognize the State of Israel because they believe it should only be God who gives them Israel, not a secular political entity.

Arye, please explain better than I can!

They have state subsidies, they pay practically no taxes, they breed like rabbits and they feel they have the right to paralyze Jerusalem in protest against a law of the state. These are people who spit at and throw things at women whom they consider "immodestly" dressed if they find them walking around their neighbourhood. They have no interest in any other human beings beyond their closed clans of religious intensity or extremism.
 
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PaulMB said:
Some of them refuse to recognize the State of Israel because they believe it should only be God who gives them Israel, not a secular political entity.
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that is so brilliantly poetic and like something from a classic woody allen film that i'm very much inclined to forgive their religious radicalism.
 
droodzilla,
I can't explain this and I don't think someone else can. It is a matter of faith. I can't understand a group of people that following one rabbi like he is speaking in the name of God, without questioning him. I can't understand people who are dressed like their parents in Europe several hundreds years ago, while the heat here is 35 Celsius and sometimes more. I can't understand people who think that it is a sin to drive on Saturday while they have many kind of "patents" to make their meals warm while using electricity on Saturday. I don't understand their women that must put wig on their hair. I don't understand people who are truly believe that Earth was created 5,800 years ago. The list is long.

Regarding demonstrations, of course they can but according to the law. In Israel the police is not interfering if the demonstration is with 50 people or so and they are not disturb the traffic and the order. If someone wants to block main streets or disturb the order, demonstration like this must be licensed. The balance between demonstrators and between the other people must be kept by the police. The response of the police to those demonstrations in Jerusalem was quite soft.

Arye
 
Lock 'em up, parasites, can’t understand why they dress like that. File this with the bloodthirsty Arabs posts. Flying the flag for liberal democracy.
 
Seanm said:
Lock 'em up, parasites, can’t understand why they dress like that. File this with the bloodthirsty Arabs posts. Flying the flag for liberal democracy.
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There is a huge gap between saying that I don't understand or even don't agree with someone' s behavior and between "Lock'm up". If you agree with and understand every one's behavior than you are a great person.

Many "liberals" that I know, are liberals in their own eyes only.

Arye
 
Sorry Arye, was condensing your comments and Paul's. Paul wanted them locked up. You just wanted the police to rough them up a bit.
 
Lock up all religious extremists regardless of which religion they are from. ALL are useless scum and a scourge on the earth. Nothing good ever comes from it and all reckon they have a right to carry out whichever form of hatred and bigotry or warfare with impunity as they "have god on their side".

They should put ISIS in with ultra orthodox Jews and fundamentalist Christians (even has "mentalist" in their name!) and let them beat each other to death. The world would be a better place without them. It's been going on since The Crusades and probably before that... There's even been Buddhist atrocities in the past few years and they're supposed to do daily penance for any ants etc they accidentally stand on... pity that religion doesn't have similar respect for humans. Meanwhile in India armed Hindu gangs have been killing people accused of eating beef!! Sky wizard bothering tossers the lot of 'em!

"Imagine there's no heaven, it's easy if you try, no hell below us, above us only sky"
 
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