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PMC Twenty5 23 / 23i

W

Witterings

Witterings
Can anybody give me an overview of either of these 2 speakers characteristics in general, if they'd be described as bright or warm and if anyone's heard them both what the differences are / are the newer ones worth the extra.

Just doing some research on forums / reviews I've seen siblance mentioned a few times, any ideas how they are with poor / elevated recordings which can often bring out any siblance / edge to the top end.
 
I have heard the 23i, not sure if bright is the right word, they are very detailed in the top end, so can be a bit brutal with a poor source. Sounded great with a Auralic streamer dac. I did feel as if the midrange was kind of.. absent, but it’s a matter of taste, suitability to your room and matching equipment. Certainly, nothing like a typical BBC type of sound, more B & W. The larger 24i seemed to fill the midrange hole to a fair degree, but the prices, don’t compare too well these days.
 
Bronzeage said:
I have heard the 23i, not sure if bright is the right word, they are very detailed in the top end, so can be a bit brutal with a poor source. Sounded great with a Auralic streamer dac. I did feel as if the midrange was kind of.. absent, but it’s a matter of taste, suitability to your room and matching equipment. Certainly, nothing like a typical BBC type of sound, more B & W. The larger 24i seemed to fill the midrange hole to a fair degree, but the prices, don’t compare too well these days.
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Cheers for that, I keep seeing the phrase "BBC Sound" recently .... how would that be characterised, is it a fairly Studio Monitor type of sound?
 
Witterings said:
Can anybody give me an overview of either of these 2 speakers characteristics in general, if they'd be described as bright or warm and if anyone's heard them both what the differences are / are the newer ones worth the extra.

Just doing some research on forums / reviews I've seen siblance mentioned a few times, any ideas how they are with poor / elevated recordings which can often bring out any siblance / edge to the top end.
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Not a direct comparison, but have heard both. I don't think the "i" 's are worth the extra considering the new RRP vs what used 25.23's might go for these days.

Disclosure: own 25.23's which I'll be moving on when I get round to it (replaced by Kef Ref 3).
 
I owned the Twenty 21 and also tried the 23. I consider them 'Bright' to use your word. I still had them around once I had bought their replacements, ATC SCM 40's and the PMCs sounded 'Brighter' than the ATCs. In fact I began to wonder if I had made the right decision as I never found the PMCs to sound unpleasant, I just wanted a better bass response. Now that my hearing is tailing off in the upper frequencies they might now be a perfect match for my ears!

Probably should have persevered with the PMC 23 trial a bit longer. I guess I just got greedy, "bigger is better", "In for a penny, in for a pound" and all that!
 
Audio T in Portsmouth carry the 25 range, pop down for a, listen, explain your issues to them and you may get a home dem and possible Px deal if they're right for you.
 
ive only had the older twenty 23 and they were well lit in the treble, with a slightly recessed mid and plenty of bass but the bass seemed a bit slow and detached in my room. ive heard the newer versions at dealers and they are still fairly explicit but seem better integrated.
 
A couple of months ago, I auditioned twenty5 21 & 21i. The 21 had a "steely", metallic sound, they were giving me a headache after one or two songs! The 21i didn't have this issue. Both are amazing with their bass speed and the realism of string instruments. However I would definitely not call them "warm". Not necessarily "bright" either, more like neutral.

I ended up buying a pair of 21i and I am still running them in. Ideally I would like to have a bit more warmth in the mid-range, but I was not fully satisfied by any other speaker to be honest. Maybe a subwoofer might help a bit in the future..

Some more speaker comparisons just in case they are of help:
- B&W 685: Nice and warm sound, probably the most enjoyable speaker I have heard so far. I have them on a second system and sometimes I wonder what is the point to spend all this money in search of something better.
- B&W 706 S3: Very bright, but then again they were brand new out of the box when I tried them.
- Sonus Faber Sonetto I: More "romantic" and warm, but I felt the bass was overblown and they made all songs sound the same.
- Amphion Argon3S: Supposed to be neutral and natural, but were giving me headache after a while..
- Audiovector R1 Signature: Probably the most complete and balanced speaker compared to the rest. Close race with the 21i, I could probably live with any of the two.
 
Lurch said:
Audio T in Portsmouth carry the 25 range, pop down for a, listen, explain your issues to them and you may get a home dem and possible Px deal if they're right for you.
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I hassled the poor guys down there too much to ask again and they know all about "my issues" :) ... they're really helpful bunch though and unfortunately I haven't given them much business in return apart from a pair of B&W 607 S2's. If they see me walking up to the door again, think they'll go and hide out the back :).

Had a pair of ATC SCM 40's on trial and AE 509's, both of which went back, do wish I'd asked to hear the PMC's when they were doing the in store demo of the ATC's, for some reason didn't think about it I was leaving and probably too late by then.

So far the comments seem to reiterate that the treble may be a bit bright which I'm definitely not after, find it too harsh with bad recordings and not great for extended listening with good recordings.
 
Pairing with amps & room interaction will both have a significant affect on speaker choice, along with personal preference, so pinch of salt etc etc……………
However, I have heard the 23 & the 23i a fair bit, although it was over a year ago now.
I also own ATC SCM40a’s & have heard the passive version a fair bit at a mates set up as well.
What was it about the ATC’s you didn’t get on with?
I really can’t see how the 23 or 23i’s would be a step up from them.
I found the PMC’s to be detailed/possibly a bit hot at the treble end & with a full bass especially considering their size.
Easier to drive than the ATC’s, but may be a bit to edgy with certain amps. the front porting ( or transmission venting to be more accurate) aids placement closer to front walls etc. I certainly wouldn’t describe them as overly warm. Yes they may be critical of poor quality recording, but then that’s not the speakers fault, it’s just capable of showing strengths & weaknesses.
I’d say they are a very good speaker, partner them with a decent amp, nothing too edgy at the top end. They’ve gone up in price a fair bit over recent years, (nearly £5k now?) so are probably at the edge of no longer being price competitive. Also wouldn’t mind betting an even newer version is not a million miles away.
Something like the KEF R7’s might be worth a side-by-side audition, especially the Meta version & they to my ears are a bit warmer & forgiving of poor recordings.
 
manicatel said:
Pairing with amps & room interaction will both have a significant affect on speaker choice, along with personal preference, so pinch of salt etc etc……………
However, I have heard the 23 & the 23i a fair bit, although it was over a year ago now.
I also own ATC SCM40a’s & have heard the passive version a fair bit at a mates set up as well.
What was it about the ATC’s you didn’t get on with?
I really can’t see how the 23 or 23i’s would be a step up from them.
I found the PMC’s to be detailed/possibly a bit hot at the treble end & with a full bass especially considering their size.
Easier to drive than the ATC’s, but may be a bit to edgy with certain amps. the front porting ( or transmission venting to be more accurate) aids placement closer to front walls etc. I certainly wouldn’t describe them as overly warm. Yes they may be critical of poor quality recording, but then that’s not the speakers fault, it’s just capable of showing strengths & weaknesses.
I’d say they are a very good speaker, partner them with a decent amp, nothing too edgy at the top end. They’ve gone up in price a fair bit over recent years, (nearly £5k now?) so are probably at the edge of no longer being price competitive. Also wouldn’t mind betting an even newer version is not a million miles away.
Something like the KEF R7’s might be worth a side-by-side audition, especially the Meta version & they to my ears are a bit warmer & forgiving of poor recordings.
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I currently have ProAc D20R's but am getting some boom with certain tracks on the low end so thought I'd try a sealed unit, I didn't not like the ATC's, they're actually an incredible speaker and a bit more seperation than the ProAc's although they were a smidge brighter and definitely harder to drive / not so good for quiet listening and while they improved the issue they didn't resolve it.

The only speakers that don't seem to have a problem all seem to be front ported hence why me looking at the PMC's, maybe it's because they project the mass of bass away from the problem areas.

I'd rather stay with floortsanders if I can due to 2 labradors being a "safer" option, if I can't find one I like that doesn't resolve the problem I'll go with ProAc D2R's (which I've home trialed and like but not as much) and incorporate a sub but floorstanders would efinitely be my 1st choice.
 
Might be worth listening to dynavectors as well. I’ve heard some glowing reports on them. Tight clean bass apparently with the evoke 30 & contour 30 models, even though they’re ported.
 
Witterings said:
The only speakers that don't seem to have a problem all seem to be front ported hence why me looking at the PMC's, maybe it's because they project the mass of bass away from the problem areas.
I'd rather stay with floor-standers if I can due to 2 labradors being a "safer" option,
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Front ported spkrs are easier to position, not needing so much space behind. However, the PMCs are transmission line, which is a bit of a departure frpm 'ported'! F.w.i.w., I have Twenty.26 (t.o.t.l.) floor-standers and despite coming from big Quad 2905 ESLs, I have become pleasantly accustomed to them and what they do well (imaging, speed, detail) they do very well.

They need space behind and to the side in my long room (but only 9' wide at spkr position) and are never harsh or poorly integrated, and bass is superb (which is what transm. line is about). However, I power them from EAR 509 valved mono's, which are, sonically, just short of solid state, having been designed for studios. My PMCs really sing; holographic and immersive. Wouldn't ming geetting bigger ons (FACT) but I'm prob. too old to faff about now.

If you're going floorstander AND PMC, don't compromise; get the .26 as the footprint is similar; I assume your amplification/other kit is up to these and similar. B.t.w., I came from the 3 x biggest original ProAc Response sprks befor ESLs.
 
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Witterings said:
Cheers for that, I keep seeing the phrase "BBC Sound" recently .... how would that be characterised, is it a fairly Studio Monitor type of sound?
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I guess it would best be classed as very midrange centric, as the idea was to reproduce the human voice as best as possible, and for ls3/5a size, best heard near field. Quite a lot of options these days in terms of size, through Graham Audio, Rogers, Spendor etc, if you want more scale. Proac have their own more dynamic take, but don’t think they are from BBC background.
 
Witterings said:
I currently have ProAc D20R's but am getting some boom with certain tracks on the low end so thought I'd try a sealed unit, I didn't not like the ATC's, they're actually an incredible speaker and a bit more seperation than the ProAc's although they were a smidge brighter and definitely harder to drive / not so good for quiet listening and while they improved the issue they didn't resolve it.

The only speakers that don't seem to have a problem all seem to be front ported hence why me looking at the PMC's, maybe it's because they project the mass of bass away from the problem areas.

I'd rather stay with floortsanders if I can due to 2 labradors being a "safer" option, if I can't find one I like that doesn't resolve the problem I'll go with ProAc D2R's (which I've home trialed and like but not as much) and incorporate a sub but floorstanders would efinitely be my 1st choice.
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Spendor’s Linear Flow method of porting seems to mostly solve bass boom, without losing bass energy, good at low levels, but do have a gentler overall presentation than Proac, still might be worth an audition.
 
I own twent5.23i’s, and for me they are keepers (though I have believed that before!)
As to their characteristics. Yes, I would describe them as brightly lit, but in a good, not a harsh way, being revealing of detail, and thereby able to offer notably good stereo imaging abilities
They have surprisingly good bass for their cabinet volume, dependent on whether it is in the source, but don’t seem to add ‘warmth’ when it isn’t present in the source, and thereby sound fast and engaging.
They also play well at lower volumes, which I felt was a failing of my ATC’s.
I also agree however, that they are not a forgiving speaker. A thin, bright, recording will sound thin and bright, but conversely well recorded recordings can sound wonderful.
 
I went from AE309's with a Naim Atom to PMC Twenty5 23i and the 309's were very good but the 23i's are levels above and now with my Michi X5 awesome!!
 
Mate of mine has the twenty 5 24 with the PMC cor amp . Very beautiful detailed sound with great bass . I find these brilliant with great recordings but poor is poor . Same with my cheaper b&w 704 S2 . I keep looking at dynaudio special 40 but never Heard them just read great reviews
 
Have had 20/21’s, 25/21’s and have 25/21i’s. Main difference, the top end of the i is much sweeter and detailed which I reckon makes the bass more tighter and faster.

The presentation isn’t as forward as the older DB1’s etc nor as bright.

listened to the new Prodigy speakers yesterday. They just do everything right, pretty unbeatable for the money.
 
Witterings said:
The only speakers that don't seem to have a problem all seem to be front ported hence why me looking at the PMC's, maybe it's because they project the mass of bass away from the problem areas.
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Bass is omnidirectional, once it leaves the port it goes all over the place.
It may help to have the port located at the bottom of the speaker because it's one less boundary to contend with.

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