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"PC Process Nobblers" - Computer Audio

L

LOZ

pfm Member
I thought it might be worth starting a new thread to see where the dust has settled on this topic 6 months on.

Having only relatively recently got computer audio to sound proper high end sound, I have just got around to trying to trying Jplay again. I have done a lot with PC sound/video (using the RME hammerfall PCI sound card) but only analogue/spdif out in the past 10 years. So now I have tried it and Fidelizer 4 on async USB.

My findings are based only on my current new system upgrade (previous system much more costly Naim):

Leema Acoustics Precision DAC, Pyxis, 2 x Hydra II bi-amped, Leema Antila IIS Eco, modified Wilmslow Audio Prestige (improved ext. crossovers). PC + Asus P67 MB, i7 2600 4 core cpu, 16Gb ram. The audio rips are DBpoweramp to an installed 3Tb hdd.

The Leema 64bit driver with Win 7 64 is used. (JPlay ASIO selected in Jriver)

This system configuration already gives a very full but detailed superb sound in bi-amped. So this should be taken into consideration with the observations below.

Both the “PC process nobblers” give an easily discernible different sound (Jriver, Foobar and others, with WASAPI, KS and ASIO). The sound is larger, richer, fuller, apparently smoother and bring the vocals forward. The extreme settings work with both these add-ons and seem to exaggerate the effects further.

So initially a couple of weeks back for Jplay 5 and several days back for Fidelizer, like many others, I thought yes they could well do what they say on the tin. However, now after more late night comparative listening sessions I am moving more towards the JRiver “hoax” and an extra layer of processing view. This comes after comparing using the CD player playing the tracks as a reference (it has the same DAC technology as standalone DAC).

With and without, all settings sound great and this is what makes it so difficult to tell, but I am now hearing that the two add-on programs in changing the sound are smoothing off the important edges, merging/smearing the image, reducing the dynamics, feelings and power in vocals. This is not good and tends to make you thinks that without is more fundamentally accurate and better long term.

You would think that Fidelizer would mess less with media players/audio driver less than JPlay (it does not show in JRiver, does not have “engines”, and does not run in the background (go to msconfig > services) (?)). It’s counter intuitive that stopping PC processes would mess up the sound but what else are the add ons doing?

To compare, I have been stopping Fidelizer.exe and JPlay.exe using crl+alt+del > task manager > services to “end process” for the audiophile settings but reboot for extreme).

So, in conclusion, I have not given up on the add ons yet and will listen more but a picture is emerging.
 
Have you tried the add ons? My experience tells that any almost any change affects sound when it's its true high end. I nearly said I hope nobody mentions bit perfect.
 
I've tried every playback software except the full version of Amarra and all of them do bugger all. Bits is bits. Once you have a solid driver selected that gives bit perfect plkaybac without dropouts its a done deal. Selecting the best drivers can take some time though.
 
LOZ said:
My experience tells that any almost any change affects sound when it's its true high end.
Click to expand...

I assume you have done controlled double-blind listening to arrive at your experiences?
 
Broadly, JRiver takes the contrary route to the usual goal of 'realtime' processing: but manually nobbling services so the OS is unable to screw things up remains good - perhaps still best - practice.

Although long in the tooth, cMP remains a great methodology primer, and it remains buried in the DNA of our computer transports, despite competition from Fidelizer, JPlay et al.

The characteristic differences you've noted show you're on the right track!
 
sq225917 said:
I've tried every playback software except the full version of Amarra and all of them do bugger all. Bits is bits. Once you have a solid driver selected that gives bit perfect plkaybac without dropouts its a done deal. Selecting the best drivers can take some time though.
Click to expand...

IIRC that wasn't what you used to think? I'm not nit-picking or being critical just wondering what made the change.
 
[offtopic] No doubt avole will be along shortly to wish you a Happy New Year Mark [/offtopic]
 
ItemAudio said:
Broadly, JRiver takes the contrary route to the usual goal of 'realtime' processing: but manually nobbling services so the OS is unable to screw things up remains good - perhaps still best - practice
Click to expand...

Do we have any evidence that any of the "nobbling" makes any difference as long as the machine doesn't get so bogged down that you get buffer timeouts?

If the OS processes make a difference, I would expect to hear lots of reports of differences in sound quality between Windows, osX and Linux...
 
Julf said:
Do we have any evidence that any of the "nobbling" makes any difference as long as the machine doesn't get so bogged down that you get buffer timeouts?

If the OS processes make a difference, I would expect to hear lots of reports of differences in sound quality between Windows, osX and Linux...
Click to expand...

All modern PC's (say last 5 years at least) can provide an uninterrupted flawless data stream that will meet all of the needs for a hifi installation provided that it is working correctly.

Flawless Data Stream + good modern DAC = bit perfect replay.

That is all you have to know, well maybe there is one other thing, do not spend any money chasing illusionary computer audio-foolery trying to improve your system - its all BS.

Happy New Year from snowy Calgary,

Louballoo
 
Interzone said:
IIRC that wasn't what you used to think? I'm not nit-picking or being critical just wondering what made the change.
Click to expand...

Yeh, then I wasted a full day listening to them blind and trying to identify particular players and also trying to identify swap overs. I couldn't. So it's itunes for everything but hi-res and A+ for hi-res (via itunes interface)
 
The fact that some people do not hear the difference is interesting. Today I was listening on a basic, but nevertheless good, office PC system and could even hear the same differences with Fidelizer 4 (audiophile setting) on and off:

Leema Elements integrated amp/DAC with 2m Supra USB cable from PC (JRiver). ATC SCM 10 monitors (tweeters changed to Scanspeak Revelators in their own separate “cabinet” = ceramic pot filled with sand bags on carved wooden cradles/Sorbothane).

It seems very unlikely that the DACs used are implicated. I tried JPlay previously in April 2012. This was analogue out from the RME pci sound card into the Naim 52 > 135s > ATC SCM 100. So there was no external DAC and the differences with and without were audible then.

Blind testing would be better with my wife swapping the settings whilst I am out of the room. However, if the “wrong” result is obtained she will be sending for the padded van.

The Naim V1 DAC has bit perfect test utility using their files with different sample rates. Has anybody with this DAC tried to see if the add ons affect the bit perfect test results?
 
I tried JPLAY and found it made no difference what so ever, I have also played music while my computer was under load while un-raring a file, no changes in sound quality at all.

My PC is fairly powerful though, 4Ghz dual core, 8Gb RAM, SSD and music is stored on a Server 2012 separate machine.
 
Position A: If you can hear difference between PCs, you need a better DAC - because yours is broken.

Postition B: If you can't hear differences between PCs, you need a better system - because yours is broken.

@ Julf: there are lots, and lots, of reports of Mac, Windows and Linux sounding different.

There's a pretty clear, audible correlation between more multi-tasked, more electrically noisy computers sounding worse - and cleaner, more streamlined ones sounding better. 'Better' it's generally agreed to be quieter, smoother, more resolved, more extended: all the classic low-jitter symptoms.

The real mystery is why some forums are so anti-digital - or never got past the shock of a dedicated 'CD transport' back in the 1980s. Bits are bits, shurely?
 
ItemAudio said:
Position A: If you can hear difference between PCs, you need a better DAC - because yours is broken.

Postition B: If you can't hear differences between PCs, you need a better system - because yours is broken.
Click to expand...

Complemented with another typical audiophile gem: If you have a better DAC, and a better system, and still don't hear a difference, you need better ears - because yours are broken :)

there are lots, and lots, of reports of Mac, Windows and Linux sounding different.
Click to expand...

Any that are actually verified under controlled, double-blind conditions? How does a Linux computer typically sound compared to a Mac? Let me guess, "less refined, a bit unkempt and geekish" :)

There's a pretty clear, audible correlation between more multi-tasked, more electrically noisy computers sounding worse - and cleaner, more streamlined ones sounding better. 'Better' it's generally agreed to be quieter, smoother, more resolved, more extended: all the classic low-jitter symptoms.
Click to expand...

I would love to see any objective proof or peer-reviewed research showing that kind of results.
 
Hey, an idea; how about a DIY USB cable with built-in resistors? .. Something below $5 total (or so). Experimentally determine the gray / exclusion zone between high and low and choose resistors that leave the high state slightly above the zone.
The idea being that analog attenuation should work on noise as well.

Of course, no fancy resistors, cables or connectors needed - it's just digital USB data.

One might get a possible benefit of a $1000 usb cable for less than 1/100th of the price. If it matters for the DAC, that is.
 
Julf said:
Complemented with another typical audiophile gem: If you have a better DAC, and a better system, and still don't hear a difference, you need better ears - because yours are broken :)
Click to expand...

Whatever position you hold, there's always someone on the other side of the fence telling you there's something wrong with you or your system.

Julf said:
Any that are actually verified under controlled, double-blind conditions? How does a Linux computer typically sound compared to a Mac? Let me guess, "less refined, a bit unkempt and geekish" :)
Click to expand...

It really doesn't matter: double blind is a red herring. But as you ask: it's very interesting to hear Mac and Windows converge toward the 'sound' of Linux as you strip them. Linux already sounds quite a lot like transparent out of the box.
 
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