Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
I bet the Arkless ECC88 line stage would work well with the Aleph 3. https://pinkfishmedia.net/forum/threads/a-valve-line-pre-amp-for-the-diy-fishy.210528/
Pass Aleph 3
- Thread starter Tony L
- Start date
a.palfreyman
pfm Member
Nah, suffers with back-ground noise. If you listen very carefully, you can just about make out the words 'ar5e gravy' repeated ad infinitum...
Tony L
Administrator
I can’t see much point in trying other valve stages as the Verdier is a high quality and versatile example of the breed that unusually has adjustable gain staging from 0 db to 20db over five steps. It will match with pretty much anything aside from the crazy high-gain Leaks. The line stage is 3 x ECC81, which aren’t fussy about driving stuff downstream. I’ll certainly be trying it upstairs in the 149 rig when I can be arsed pulling it out (it is well plumbed in as I have multiple tape decks etc connected!) and should learn some more at that point. It should indicate if I need more gain anyway. If so I’ll maybe keep a casual eye out for something old, high-end, possibly solid state and serviceable, maybe even one of Pass’s preamps, e.g. an ‘80s Threshold. These days I’m only really interested in things that I can move on at no loss, so I’m reluctant to go the kit/DIY route even though it would be great fun to build one.
S-Man
StrivingON
I didn't notice any change from cold to very hot with my Aleph. It just sounded "airbrushed" all the time. I would really like to know how an amp can sound so good superficially, but not hold my attention over time.
Looks like you have a better result.
Tony L
Administrator
I need to spend a lot more time with it in this new context before really forming opinions, but my first impression with the 149s was positive and it certainly changes with temperature. From cold it is dark, opaque and somewhat uninvolving. Last night I fired it up, thought ‘this is certainly more promising than with the Tannoys’ and picked up the iPad and did some browsing. After about 40 minutes or so it started grabbing my attention and a bit more than that I got to the ‘shit, this is actually really good!’ stage. At that point I started flinging a few very familiar things on ‘Morph The Cat’, ‘Live At The Village Vanguard’, the Paul Motain I mentioned above. It was doing that ‘unflappable’ thing I’ve heard with Krells and small speakers in the past where the bass has a power and depth it just shouldn’t from a speaker that size, a real solidity all round. I still think it sounded just a little dark, there is less emphasis on drum kit metalwork than I’m used to, but what is there is very clean and clear and occupies a very defined and believable acoustic space, if somewhat narrower left/right than the Leaks (which can throw this very wide of the speakers). I don’t quite understand that.
Again there is a context aspect here, the 149s sound a little thin and bright with the TL12 Plus, the LS3/5As do match a little better with their bass-hump. The Pass brought some missing stature and heft, so is an interesting alternative. Also it needs to be pointed out I set the JR149 tweeter level by ear (backed up with REW measurements), so if I want to give it a slight nudge upwards obviously I can! Rhythmically it is very decent, not exaggerated ‘edge of seat’ flat-earth, not dragging or dead in the water, tempo sounds natural to me and great playing sounds like great playing.
I need to far better understand how it responds to inputs, but with the limited knowledge I have at this point I do think it has a ‘smooth’ character to the top. I need to understand this better, e.g. maybe it is a lack of a distortion I’m used to, maybe it is an input mismatch, maybe just a sonic character, I just don’t know. The treble is definitely still there and very, very clean and detailed, not a hint of sibilance, splash, tizz etc, really well sorted, but it just sounds a little pulled-back in the mix to where I think it should be. This was disastrous with the Tannoys, it just killed them, but it really isn’t with the 149s that may actually benefit from it. It also surprises me I am so sensitive to it as I do have some age/rock band-related hearing loss, so treble to me is in the 6-10kHz range. Looking at a simple spectrum analyser on my iPad shows plenty of activity up to 16kHz (it would be better if I took it out of its thick rubber case as that definitely impedes the mic). As such any darkness I perceive is likely qualitative rather than quantitative, it is that the treble is different to what I am used to rather than missing.
I have a feeling I’ll be keeping this amp even if I don’t keep it in regular use. It is interesting and different enough from the other stuff I have to be useful.
PS I’m also not sure an amp burning 250 Watts an hour is entirely justifiable in an energy crisis! By comparison the little TL12 Plus consume 75 Watts each, the 303 typically 40-50W at the output I ask of it. Reading up on Audio Asylum etc suggests many owners left their Pass amps cooking 24/7, which is just crazy!
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a.palfreyman
pfm Member
Tony,
Could be you just need longer for these new caps to settle in. Some don't believe in it but form my own experiences I do. For a start, just look how much difference you noted from going from old to new 'straight out of the box' so to speak.
Know what you mean about standing watts usage too. Hard to justify, if nothing other than for raised bills with rising prices, let alone extra CO2 footprint.
Could be you just need longer for these new caps to settle in. Some don't believe in it but form my own experiences I do. For a start, just look how much difference you noted from going from old to new 'straight out of the box' so to speak.
Know what you mean about standing watts usage too. Hard to justify, if nothing other than for raised bills with rising prices, let alone extra CO2 footprint.
Tony L
Administrator
Possibly. I’d expect the PSU caps to be there by now as they are running right on their voltage rating (25V) and it’s pretty hot in there, the smaller ones may take a bit more time/have more of an impact, I’ve no idea how hard they are working. I’ll certainly find out as I’ll leave this setup alone for a while and just get used to it. It was obviously wrong downstairs driving the Tannoys, but it is not up here with the 149s. Whether it is ultimately as good as the TL12 Plus or Stereo 20 remains to be seen, but it isn’t obviously bad! I’ve just been listening to it for an hour or two and enjoying it. I may even be revising my view on the perceived ‘darkness’, everything is sounding nicely balanced really.
It’s actually nothing in the grand scheme of things. Looking at the alarmist email I got from Octopus Energy recently trying to switch me into a fixed tariff the prices are in the 20p/14p per kWh, so it’s about 5p an hour to run the thing. I’d never leave any hi-fi powered-up 24/7, but I’m certainly not going to worry about that amount!
Bob Edwards
pfm Member
I remember going to listen to the Aleph 3 when it came out, to much hysteria. It was alleged to be one of the best setups NP had heard for it. And it was . . . OK. Fine. Good sounding. But hardly the dramatic re-invention of the power amp that its fans were claiming.
Tony L
Administrator
That’s about where I am with it. Once warmed up I’d describe it as thoroughly competent. I’m listening to it now and it is doing absolutely nothing wrong at all, everything is in its correct place, the 149s sounding like the lovely little speakers they are, everything is under control, lots of detail/information etc, the timing is fine, but I’m not getting that magical extra thing the Leaks do that is so hard to define in words. It wouldn’t surprise me if it needs an extra push at the input to wake it up.
Can you remember what the preamp was in the system you heard? I know NP is no fan of passives so I may well be running at a disadvantage here.
PS Just to rule it out I very briefly tried the Quad 34 as it was sleeping in its box nearby. Absolutely useless as expected, very audibly clipping/distorting on CD before getting to even a quiet listening level into the Pass. Fair enough given it was designed to partner the 306 and 405-2 (0.375 & 0.5V for full out), but still worth noting you can’t open a Quad 34 right up on CD without obviously overdriving something (I assume its output stage).
Bob Edwards
pfm Member
Tony - I don't. Given that Nelson Pass was there (the only time I've ever met him) I'd *assume* an active pre, whether a Threshold or something else from him, but don't remember.
Tony L
Administrator
As a one off I’m trying the ‘cooking’ approach. I turned it on about half an hour ago and I’ll start listening after I’ve watched at least the headlines of the C4 News at 7. Given I only tend to listen for a couple of hours that will get a listen with up to 3-4 hours on the clock. I’ve no intention of ever doing this as a routine thing, but I’m curious if the ‘magic’ happens when it is as warm as it wants to get.
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Not all tube preamps are the same, they come in different flavors.
Tony L
Administrator
Agreed, very much so. It’s a pretty good one though! I’ve heard quite a few over the years and it replaced a highly regarded Croft 25R in my system and I’d put the inbuilt phono stage at the EAR 834P (which I’ve also owned) level. JC Verdier knew what he was doing IMO.
Interesting construction too, and superb from a Right To Repair perspective. Nothing odd or bespoke, full schematic in the manual, just easy to access and work on (I swapped-out all the electrolytics when I got it as I had no idea how much use it had had). The PSU is external, but similarly simple (I have the smaller one, there was also a big valve-regulated one). The fact it uses old computer ribbon cable and connectors appeals to my inner IT geek.
PS Line stage on right, phono on left.
Bob Edwards
pfm Member
Based on other threads, I tried turning off my Exposure 3010S2 monoblocks to save electricity and a teeny-tiny bit of the planet (10 watts at idle per amp - 20 watts for the pair). Not sure I can keep doing it - there's a significant drop-off in sound quality after being off for a while, and it has taken a couple of hours for them to almost reach their normal performance level.
So trying the Aleph 3 after it is fully warmed up seems a good idea.
Tony L
Administrator
Just sat down to listen a while back and warm-up is so obviously a big factor. It sounds seriously good from the first CD now its been on for an hour and a half, just no question I’m listening to a very good amp. It has an identifiable ‘solid state class A’ thing that I recognise from Krell, Sugden, Accuphase etc; liquid, three-dimensional, spacious, rock-solid and unflappable with really tight and defined bass. A different thing to valve class A, but still very identifiable. I don’t remember the classic Krells taking this long from cold to really hit the spot, but I guess I never paid as much attention as I never personally owned one (a friend/flatmate did).
I was always in two-minds on warm-up as a Naim owner. The consensus/group-think was always to leave them powered up 24/7, which I did for a while, but I came to the conclusion there was an optimum somewhere that if they’d been on too long they sounded a bit thin to my ears. I ended up leaving the HiCap on 24/7 and turning off the power amp (I’ve owned a 140, 250 and 135s). Nothing else I’ve owned cares. The valve stuff is warmed up in minutes, the 303 doesn’t get noticeably better after the first half hour, so really one side of a record and everything is in the zone. I obviously much prefer it that way as it saves on the hassle of recapping stuff every decade, plus keeps power costs down.
I’m incapable of applying audiophile percentages to things, so I’m not going to attempt to, but it is very different after an hour or two. I’d say pretty much different amp different. Part of the reason I’ve been struggling to articulate what I think of it is clearly down to this. Cold it could be any half competent solid state amp, say a Quad 405. Not horrible, but not screaming “Look! Proper US high end right here!”. An hour to an hour and a half in and that actually happens. This doesn’t change any of the downstairs findings with the Tannoys though, I swapped over from the Pass two hours plus in to a stone cold 303 that hadn’t been used for a few days, and the 303 won! It is a very different amp into the far more normal/modern JR149s.
I was always in two-minds on warm-up as a Naim owner. The consensus/group-think was always to leave them powered up 24/7, which I did for a while, but I came to the conclusion there was an optimum somewhere that if they’d been on too long they sounded a bit thin to my ears. I ended up leaving the HiCap on 24/7 and turning off the power amp (I’ve owned a 140, 250 and 135s). Nothing else I’ve owned cares. The valve stuff is warmed up in minutes, the 303 doesn’t get noticeably better after the first half hour, so really one side of a record and everything is in the zone. I obviously much prefer it that way as it saves on the hassle of recapping stuff every decade, plus keeps power costs down.
I’m incapable of applying audiophile percentages to things, so I’m not going to attempt to, but it is very different after an hour or two. I’d say pretty much different amp different. Part of the reason I’ve been struggling to articulate what I think of it is clearly down to this. Cold it could be any half competent solid state amp, say a Quad 405. Not horrible, but not screaming “Look! Proper US high end right here!”. An hour to an hour and a half in and that actually happens. This doesn’t change any of the downstairs findings with the Tannoys though, I swapped over from the Pass two hours plus in to a stone cold 303 that hadn’t been used for a few days, and the 303 won! It is a very different amp into the far more normal/modern JR149s.
dan m
pfm Member
So does this amp predate the Aleph P?
Yank
Bulbous Also Tapered
Agreed, very much so. It’s a pretty good one though! I’ve heard quite a few over the years and it replaced a highly regarded Croft 25R in my system and I’d put the inbuilt phono stage at the EAR 834P (which I’ve also owned) level. JC Verdier knew what he was doing IMO.
Interesting construction too, and superb from a Right To Repair perspective. Nothing odd or bespoke, full schematic in the manual, just easy to access and work on (I swapped-out all the electrolytics when I got it as I had no idea how much use it had had). The PSU is external, but similarly simple (I have the smaller one, there was also a big valve-regulated one). The fact it uses old computer ribbon cable and connectors appeals to my inner IT geek.
PS Line stage on right, phono on left.
I do like the layout and construction of that piece. I had assumed it would reside somewhere on the "rich and fruity" side of the tube-sound spectrum, what with being French and all. Is that a misconception?
Tony L
Administrator
Yes, to a degree. I’d put it slap bang in the middle of the field; it’s not trying to be dry, tight and bright solid state, but neither is it rose-tinted glasses and stodge. Whilst I’ve learned a hell of a lot about what I like over the past 20 years and my musical taste/knowledge has expanded hugely I’m still a flat-earther at heart (though one that discovered valves and horns do this stuff way better!). These days I’m also primarily a jazz listener and that’s where all the good drummers live! It is a good funky little preamp, though as with any valve component it is down to you to choose the finest amplification components (the valves themselves) you can find. It’s currently stuffed with about £400 worth of NOS Mullards.
I don’t know much about French hi-fi, but from what I can make out the late JC Verdier was pretty much the Peter Walker or Harold Leak of it. A career going back 50+ years before his death working for many other companies (e.g. he designed the Era decks etc). I’d also argue that from what I’ve heard French hi-fi is anything but ‘rich and fruity’. I’m no great JM Labs fan as to my ears they are the absolute polar opposite; thin, bright, over-damped, lean and dead sounding (attributes I place at many modern speakers with metal tweeters and ultra high-mass cabinets). I’ve not heard any Triangle speaker I’d describe as rich/fruity either.
I guess its a catch 22 thing as any less and the output stages would run too hot and die prematurely. The heatsinks exist to keep them in a safe operating range. Being class A that can be precisely calculated (and is at 25c above ambient). Class A/B amps need heatsinks for their worst case scenario, e.g. the Quad 303 has pretty massive heatsinks that are in most cases cold to the touch, it is only if you make extreme demands on it that it will heat up. Class A is ‘always on’, so needs heatsinks to cope with that, i.e. it certainly shouldn’t keep getting hotter as long as its on! The Pass seems to have the appropriate heatsinks to hold it at a constant temperature after an hour or so of use.
I think you’re right about where I was with the Aleph 3. I struggled with selling it as I really loved its aesthetics (although not crazy about the power switch on the back), and the fact that it sounded great with some speakers. I can imagine it driving your JR149 well. I liked it with small two-ways, too. I was trying to hold on to it in the eventuality that I would own horns again, which I thought the Pass would match bang-on. At this point, I think you gotta buy back your La Scala’s or Heresy’s lol..or get some not-expensive RP-600m’s or Royds, but I’m a guy who like mini-monitors so I would say that.