Panning in classical music
- Thread starter molee
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duncan
...
Lots of classical pieces are written and performed with some spatial awareness.
Antiphonal choirs (two or more groups of singers in different places) were used in medieval and renaissance music and probably long before that. The apotheosis of this style was the Venetian polychoral style which involved spatially separate choirs singing in alternation. This was particularly suited to and influenced by the architecture of St. Mark's cathedral. Pretty hard to reproduce via two channels.
Beethoven 7th symphony finale has the tune bounce back and forward between the first and second violins. To work, the conductor has to separate sections - firsts on the left and seconds on the right as you look at the stage. This transmits just fine to stereo reproduction.
Berlioz was a great innovator in orchestration and his 'Grand messe des morts' calls for 4 brass bands, placed north, south, east and west of the audience. More than two speakers required!
Following Berloz' example, later romantic composers often used these kinds of effects. Mahler's second symphony has an off-stage band. The composer's instructions are that they should be as far away from the main orchestra as possible. This works reasonably well via stereo but is much better in the hall. His sixth symphony has alpine cowbells. Albert Hall performances typically have them up in the gods, really effective if you are down in the stalls. This vertical panning doesn't really come over on two channel systems.
Plenty of modern composers have used multiple sound sources, with often very precise instructions as to their spatial arrangement. An extreme example, Stockhausen's Cosmic Pulses, plays 24 'layers' of music through 8 sources arranged around the audience. The sounds travels all around the listener. This might work through a surround system but I suspect you really need to be there.
In comparison with this, the stereo panning effects in rock music are pretty unambitious.
Antiphonal choirs (two or more groups of singers in different places) were used in medieval and renaissance music and probably long before that. The apotheosis of this style was the Venetian polychoral style which involved spatially separate choirs singing in alternation. This was particularly suited to and influenced by the architecture of St. Mark's cathedral. Pretty hard to reproduce via two channels.
Beethoven 7th symphony finale has the tune bounce back and forward between the first and second violins. To work, the conductor has to separate sections - firsts on the left and seconds on the right as you look at the stage. This transmits just fine to stereo reproduction.
Berlioz was a great innovator in orchestration and his 'Grand messe des morts' calls for 4 brass bands, placed north, south, east and west of the audience. More than two speakers required!
Following Berloz' example, later romantic composers often used these kinds of effects. Mahler's second symphony has an off-stage band. The composer's instructions are that they should be as far away from the main orchestra as possible. This works reasonably well via stereo but is much better in the hall. His sixth symphony has alpine cowbells. Albert Hall performances typically have them up in the gods, really effective if you are down in the stalls. This vertical panning doesn't really come over on two channel systems.
Plenty of modern composers have used multiple sound sources, with often very precise instructions as to their spatial arrangement. An extreme example, Stockhausen's Cosmic Pulses, plays 24 'layers' of music through 8 sources arranged around the audience. The sounds travels all around the listener. This might work through a surround system but I suspect you really need to be there.
In comparison with this, the stereo panning effects in rock music are pretty unambitious.
PsB
Citizen of Nowhere™
Yes they do, and it can be conveyed quite well by modern recordings (CD or LP). IMHO this is one of the reasons why the ability to provide a decent spatial representation (soundstage) is essential for a system to qualify as Hifi.
Other examples besides the ones provided by Duncan:
The concerto grosso form in baroque music where a small group of instruments are in a dialogue with the rest of the orchestra. Examples: concerti grossi by Handel, Corelli, and Bach's Brandenburg concertos.
Works well in 2-channel.
Double choirs: Bach's St Matthew Passion (there are also 2 orchestras, 2 continuos and 2 groups of solo performers, and these frequently engage in "Q&A" sessions), and the B Minor Mass; parts of Handel's Israel in Egypt; Schütz's Musikalische Exequien; Poulenc's Figure Humaine; Britten's War Requiem (I think). Works rather well in 2-channel.
Double or split orchestras: Bartók specified 2 separate string sections (on each side of the winds and percussions) for his Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta. Lots of other examples: Tippett, Bainbridge but also Vivaldi. These all work well in 2-channel. More challenging: Stockhausen's Gruppen has 3 orchestras, each with its own conductor.
Verdi's Requiem is another one with special effects with trumpets playing from the transept of the church/cathedral to create a little diversion. It's a common effect in the contemporary repertoire: I heard recently a couple of woodwinds (Chineses sounas, a bit like an oboe) perched in the balconies on each side of the concert hall (Hillborg's Dreaming River), all a bit contrived. Outside the range of 2-channel representation anyway.
Other examples besides the ones provided by Duncan:
The concerto grosso form in baroque music where a small group of instruments are in a dialogue with the rest of the orchestra. Examples: concerti grossi by Handel, Corelli, and Bach's Brandenburg concertos.
Works well in 2-channel.
Double choirs: Bach's St Matthew Passion (there are also 2 orchestras, 2 continuos and 2 groups of solo performers, and these frequently engage in "Q&A" sessions), and the B Minor Mass; parts of Handel's Israel in Egypt; Schütz's Musikalische Exequien; Poulenc's Figure Humaine; Britten's War Requiem (I think). Works rather well in 2-channel.
Double or split orchestras: Bartók specified 2 separate string sections (on each side of the winds and percussions) for his Music for Strings, Percussion and Celesta. Lots of other examples: Tippett, Bainbridge but also Vivaldi. These all work well in 2-channel. More challenging: Stockhausen's Gruppen has 3 orchestras, each with its own conductor.
Verdi's Requiem is another one with special effects with trumpets playing from the transept of the church/cathedral to create a little diversion. It's a common effect in the contemporary repertoire: I heard recently a couple of woodwinds (Chineses sounas, a bit like an oboe) perched in the balconies on each side of the concert hall (Hillborg's Dreaming River), all a bit contrived. Outside the range of 2-channel representation anyway.
Those are some fantastically detailed replies-thanks. I'm not into classical and rock music's daliance with it tends to be a bit 'pretentious moi'. My wife says 'Whats the point of having an expensive poncy stereo if you're just going to listen to the Stooges'. I fancy checking out some of that Stockhausen stuff though.
Its shame some of those old kings College recordings are hissy as the famous Zadok the Priest has natural reverb that made me fall of my seat the first time I heard a Linn in 1979- and then bought one
Likewise Decca recordings of Britten's works at the Snape Maltings always catch my ear with that acoustic
Id recomend trying the Simple Symphony
These are tangential to your ? but its this factor that one made me buy a Linn and still prefer vinyl - I miss the accessing the acoustic on most cd'd although they can do space - its just not resonant with info in the same way
Likewise Decca recordings of Britten's works at the Snape Maltings always catch my ear with that acoustic
Id recomend trying the Simple Symphony
These are tangential to your ? but its this factor that one made me buy a Linn and still prefer vinyl - I miss the accessing the acoustic on most cd'd although they can do space - its just not resonant with info in the same way
duncan
...
Someone clearly reads pfm...
"Birmingham Opera Company will present a live performance of the zany Stockhausen piece in which members of a strong quartet perform in helicopters"
I expect they are in training right now.
Well, if they are still reading, then - please whatever you do, don't do those annoying voices when you start shouting the numbers. Both the clip above and the CD have them, so there must be some direct instruction in the score, but just ignore it - it makes you look really stupid.
HTH,
palp
HTH,
palp
tones
Tones deaf
Pretty much everything Mozart wrote involves bouncing a tune around the orchestra! And works very well in stereo.
Tallis Spem in Allum is a piece written for eight choirs of five voices who are probably intended to stand in a horseshoe shape - i think there's at least one 5 channel recording.