Orchard Starkrimson Ultra

[Leo Ayzenshtat]

Sorry I am trying to learn, what in the hand full of components on that board which is what a credit card size makes it 1000 dollars?

I am a small manufacturer and don't make these boards by the thousands compared to other manufacturers. Outside the cost of the components on the circuit board, you also have to consider the cost of design, testing, logistics, inventory, and the overhead associated with running a business.

Apple has a much higher margin on their iPhones and tablets than I do on my amplifier modules.

 

[Leo Ayzenshtat]

Mike has beaten me to it with his posting, my post will follow shortly.

looking forward to it.

 

[garyi]

I am a small manufacturer and don't make these boards by the thousands compared to other manufacturers. Outside the cost of the components on the circuit board, you also have to consider the cost of design, testing, logistics, inventory, and the overhead associated with running a business.

Apple has a much higher margin on their iPhones and tablets than I do on my amplifier modules.

OK thanks. As I say I am trying to learn. It baffles me how these work. I don't understand why for instance the new naim nova SE has class D amps, but still needs a transformer the size of a car wheel?

 

[OzBrit Audio]

I wasn’t saying anything against GaN FETs or indeed Leo’s amps. I was simply reporting what 2 extremely clever people have said about the use of those FETs in class D amps. If they believed they offered inherent advantages then I’m sure they would have used them in the Purifi modules. Maybe they are wrong, but I think you’d be a brave man to bet on that.

To be honest I wouldn't have a clue about which technology is the better one.

My interest is in the end result and how it all sounds. My observations so far are that there are more people liking the Orchard StarKrimson than the Purify ET400

Of course I might end being completely wrong about this. They may sound exactly the same, both 'just wires with gain' if you believe the populous spouting their SINAD ratings on AudioScienceReview (as you've probably gathered by now I don't)

But I'm hoping this one (the StarKrimson) sounds better. As I said I'm about to do a build myself so I'll update everyone as I move along

 

[OzBrit Audio]

OK thanks. As I say I am trying to learn. It baffles me how these work. I don't understand why for instance the new naim nova SE has class D amps, but still needs a transformer the size of a car wheel?

Are their pictures out there of the new Nova internals?

They probably use a linear power supply if it's a big one or even if the Class D has a SMPS it wouldn't surprise me if they still use a massive toroid to power up everything else. Thats what they like to do, they reckon big toroids sound better!

 

[garyi]

I guess so. I have dabbled in class D stuff. Easily the best was a toby amp (I think) from chord, blagged that from a mate for a few weeks and it made my head bend that such a small thing could do that. I have a wiim amp as well which I guess is the lower end of the market, but its all very impressive.

 

[Mike Hanson]

Mike, it is interesting to note that Purifi have not adopted GaN FETs in their class D modules even though they clearly could if they wanted to. Despite all the talk of higher switching speeds and less dead time etc, Bruno and Lars have both said GaN FETs actually offer no inherent advantages over other FETS in a class D amp. Its worth searching out what they have written and spoken about on this subject.

There are many amps (especially Class-D) that measure exceedingly well (some might say "perfectly"). I have both the Neurochrome Modulus-686 and the Orchard Starkrimson Ultra, which look fantastic on paper. However, they don't sound the same. Similar, yes, but the Orchard amp is much more rhythmic to my ears. The Neurochrome sounds very accurate and detailed, but doesn't engage me as well. (We'll be including the Neurochrome in our comparison of the two Orchard amps in a couple of weeks.)

Ultimately, measurements are only a hint at how something will sound. For example, Class AB amps typically measure worse than Class D, yet I generally prefer the sound of a good Class AB design, perhaps because I like the sound of the distortion inherent in the signal. I used to be one of those who was hunting for "perfect data retrieval" from my system, but I've since recognized that I would prefer to have something that gives me more pleasure, even if it's not supposedly "correct".

That's why I'm quite pleased with the combination of my Cary SLP-2002 tube preamp (with all of its euphonic distortion) feeding the Orchard Starkrimson Ultra (with it's rhythmic accuracy), followed by the Klipsch Cornwall IV (with it's dynamic "live" personality). It creates a wonderful synergy with the many sonic elements that I desire from my system.

Having said that, I also very much enjoy the Ferrum Wandla+Hypsos combo (acting as DAC and preamp) into the Avondale SE400 power amp and Ergo IX speakers in my office. The SE400 is not as clean sounding as the Orchard, and that distortion seems to emulate the desirable effect of the tubes in my main system.

In the end, so much of it comes down to system synergy. Each component in the system (right down to the cables and physical setup) adds something to the mix. The trick is finding the right combination to produce an overall presentation that suits your expectations. If you're happy, then it's "right" (regardless if it's "accurate").

 

[S-Man]

There are many amps (especially Class-D) that measure exceedingly well (some might say "perfectly"). I have both the Neurochrome Modulus-686 and the Orchard Starkrimson Ultra, which look fantastic on paper. However, they don't sound the same. Similar, yes, but the Orchard amp is much more rhythmic to my ears. The Neurochrome sounds very accurate and detailed, but doesn't engage me as well. (We'll be including the Neurochrome in our comparison of the two Orchard amps in a couple of weeks.)

Ultimately, measurements are only a hint at how something will sound. For example, Class AB amps typically measure worse than Class D, yet I generally prefer the sound of a good Class AB design, perhaps because I like the sound of the distortion inherent in the signal.

There are lots of amps that measure very well when one channel is driven into a resistive load on a test bench. However when both channels are connected in a system with a reactive load the measurements are likely to be worse.

I doubt that the differences you are hearing is due to THD (measured with continous sine waves).

I wonder if a class A/B amp with moderate levels of distortion would measure better with an class D type of output filter? (And what would it do to the sound?).

 

[Mike Hanson]

There are lots of amps that measure very well when one channel is driven into a resistive load on a test bench. However when both channels are connected in a system with a reactive load the measurements are likely to be worse.

I doubt that the differences you are hearing is due to THD (measured with continous sine waves).

I wonder if a class A/B amp with moderate levels of distortion would measure better with an class D type of output filter? (And what would it do to the sound?).

Yes, and given that each type of speaker represents a different type of load, that muddles things further.

I almost always build dual mono or mono block amps. I adhere to the believe that the power supply has a massive impact on the amp, so I prefer to have at least one independent supply per channel.

 

[iansr]

As we have discussed over on DIYA Mike, my ideal amp would probably be an absolutely neutral / transparent power amp with a dash of dominant second harmonic distortion, courtesy perhaps of a triode preamp or buffer. My report of Bruno’s views on the use of GaN FETs does not imply anything in relation how his or anybody else’s class D amps either sound or measure.

 

[sq225917]

Any class d amp testing with the standard AES filter between output and AP test gear isn't apples to apples vs an A/B amp without the filter. Also that AP test gear will be far more impervious the smps grunge a class d might shit back into the mains than most none smps equipped audio gear. There's a lot of twenty year old plus audio gear in use that was designed before smps noise rejection was a consideration.

 

[Mike Hanson]

As we have discussed over on DIYA Mike, my ideal amp would probably be an absolutely neutral / transparent power amp with a dash of dominant second harmonic distortion, courtesy perhaps of a triode preamp or buffer. My report of Bruno’s views on the use of GaN FETs does not imply anything in relation how his or anybody else’s class D amps either sound or measure.

It's been a progressive shift for me:

• At one point I had the very neutral Benchmark DAC2 HGC, also acting as preamp, feeding various Avondale power amps, into Ergo IX and Royd RR3 speakers. I've since deduced that the Avondale amps and my choice of speakers were adding various pleasantries that made things quite enjoyable.
• When I switched to the Klipsch Cornwall IV, I gained much, but I lost some of the character of the RR3, leaving the system sounding a bit thin. This resulted in my change to a tube integrated.
• I wanted to use my own DIY power amps, so I soon tried a tube preamp, and that gave me the same benefits of the tube integrated.
• Then I discovered that the tube preamp plus Avondale power amp was a bit "too much", with both trying to add their own fulsome character. Consequently, I discovered that the character-rich tube preamp into the rather neutral Orchard power was a perfect combo.

It's definitely a matter of finding the right components to work in concert.

 

[Mike Hanson]

Any class d amp testing with the standard AES filter between output and AP test gear isn't apples to apples vs an A/B amp without the filter. Also that AP test gear will be far more impervious the smps grunge a class d might shit back into the mains than most none smps equipped audio gear. There's a lot of twenty year old plus audio gear in use that was designed before smps noise rejection was a consideration.

On a related note, when I built my first Orchard amp, Leo coached me that I needed to use a filtered IEC socket, to prevent the two SMPS modules from barfing noise back onto the mains.

In contrast, this second amp with the linear supply can use a regular socket.

 

[Mike Hanson]

Just a bit of time this evening, so I got the copper ground bars fabricated and found the appropriate hardware. Tomorrow, I hope to decide on final layout, then get the holes drilled in the base plate so that I can mount everything.

 

[OzBrit Audio]

There are lots of amps that measure very well when one channel is driven into a resistive load on a test bench. However when both channels are connected in a system with a reactive load the measurements are likely to be worse.

I doubt that the differences you are hearing is due to THD (measured with continous sine waves).

I wonder if a class A/B amp with moderate levels of distortion would measure better with a class D type of output filter? (And what would it do to the sound?).

Interesting last comment. I have often wondered whether part of the sound signature is actually what we ‘don’t’ let through as opposed to what we do.

I see people using isolation transformers to take out ‘digital glare’ for example claiming the sound becomes 'more organic' as a result.

I also note that the switching frequency is a lot higher than the average class D (800Khz) which takes the switching crud even further away from the audio spectrum and is also more easier to filter out.

 

[OzBrit Audio]

Just a bit of time this evening, so I got the copper ground bars fabricated and found the appropriate hardware. Tomorrow, I hope to decide on final layout, then get the holes drilled in the base plate so that I can mount everything.

Its Art Mike

You should sell it to the Tate in London

You'd be able to retire on the proceeds

 

[martin clark]

I wonder if a class A/B amp with moderate levels of distortion would measure better with an class D type of output filter? (And what would it do to the sound?).

I've suggested that before, too. The Audio Precision units have an add-on 7-pole filter above 20Khz for measurement of Class-D amps; I'd love to see the effect when used on a Class AB type.

 

[sq225917]

That'd be interesting, the ahb2 goes from-120 a 3khz to -90 at 20khz...

 

[martin clark]

TBH, since the ear/brain wetware cannot perceive higher-harmonics above c. 7Khz input freq at best - it's an intellectual curiosity more than much of practical application.

[i.e. more armament for people who like to shout at clouds - however such a test turned -out ]

 

[Mike Hanson]

Baseplate populated: