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North West Audio Show 2024

TheFlash said:
At the risk of channelling my inner KeithPuriteAudio (noooo!!! be gone, scoundrel!), I think you're missing something. All we have to go on, all a hifi system can ever do, is to reproduce the recording as accurately or warmly or foot-tappingly or in-your-face dynamically (or whatever flavour of sauce we choose to flavour system with) as we wish.

It is irrelevant whether it was recorded in a concert hall or a studio or a bedroom and whether the instruments used were period or repro or a computer program. It is arguably irrelevant what the composer or conductor or producer intended too; that requires much guesswork on our part. All we have is the recording.
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I agree. The above comes from the point of view of reproducing the original faithfully, which many aim for. Personally, I've always been of the belief you should choose what you want, how you want it to sound, as you're paying the money, you've got to live with it. Preference or reference, take your pick. Usually when I say that I get the reference lot speaking up, so can't win either way...

Having said that, every instrument does have a specific sound, including fully created electronic sounds (not instruments!), but we will never know what they really sound like, which was the point I was trying to make earlier.
 
TheFlash said:
At the risk of channelling my inner KeithPuriteAudio (noooo!!! be gone, scoundrel!), I think you're missing something. All we have to go on, all a hifi system can ever do, is to reproduce the recording as accurately or warmly or foot-tappingly or in-your-face dynamically (or whatever flavour of sauce we choose to flavour system with) as we wish.

It is irrelevant whether it was recorded in a concert hall or a studio or a bedroom and whether the instruments used were period or repro or a computer program. It is arguably irrelevant what the composer or conductor or producer intended too; that requires much guesswork on our part. All we have is the recording.
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Wash your mouth out young man! šŸ˜€

Bugger the ā€œrecordingā€ all we have is how we react to the music; whether weā€™re fooled into thinking we are listening to the original performance (where it existed), and whether we get so engrossed in the music that we just keep on listening late into the night, hairs on neck and goosebumps deployed!

Thankfully there are recording engineers and hifi manufacturers that get this and allow us to be enthralled by music not by getting off on some nerdy comparison with the ā€œrecordingā€. ;)
 
Tony L said:
The problem is people listen in different ways for different things. This is one aspect that makes audio replay so interesting. Some go entirely on what makes them tap their foot or me(n)tally sing a melody, others can identify what type of mic was on the snare and where it was placed. Everyoneā€™s reality is different too, e.g. some think of gigs, others (Iā€™m one) canā€™t think of anything worse (my goal is the studio control room). The problem comes when dealers start to force narratives rather than accepting everyone finds their own thing. I found sitting in on dems in the past fascinating as different people (assuming they are being honest) do focus on very different things.
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I'm not trying to win any arguments here, but the above is exactly how I see (hear) it. We all listen to different music and we all listen to music differently.

We all seek different things from music, we all hear different things in music and we all favour different aspects of music...and that's before we even get into genres...

I also believe that there are those among us whose declared musical preferences are stated 'for effect', to project the desired 'social image'...and that in itself raises the issue of what 'guilty secrets' such listeners hide. Echoes of Tony's 'dealers forcing narratives'

A major divide I detect is between rhythm and melody. Of course, all music contains both.. but the emphasis varies. I'm generally drawn to melodic vocals and to instruments which 'echo' the human voice. That's not to say I dislike rock, or even electronically generated music. It's just a question of emphasis. I was totally immersed in the huge musical variety of 1960's pop, rock, folk, some jazz and also a fair bit of classical, as well as having a fondness for earlier jazz, blues, big band, swing, etc.
I very quickly moved on from rock.. From being massively into Hendrix, Cream, and Co.. and guitarists such as Peter Green and Jeff Beck.. I quickly lost interest in the way that all went.. especially as 'prog' loomed... but I digress...

I really can't get 'into' electronic music. Believe me, I've tried.. but I struggle to detect emotion and humanity in it and since that's my main motivation for listening..it's sort of a non starter. YMMV.

Most rooms at Carnage got only a cursory listen from me. That's mostly because I'm not especially seeking new kit, but also because a lot of them were playing music which was more than just not interesting.. it was positively off putting. The one major exception was the Chasing the Dragon room, where the music was not only interesting, but sounding superb. Notably, the recording of the Syd Lawrence Orchestra. I'd previously lumped that lot in with James Last.. as 'opportunist copyists'.. but I got my 'eye wiped', when I heard classic 'swing' era stuff, played and recorded really well. A real pleasure to hear.

Trying to sum up 'demo music'. Rather too much electronica, for my tastes, but more generally I'd appeal to all dealers/makers to understand that 'punters' want to know how any given system might play THEIR musical preferences and the only way to approach that is to have a program of stuff.. preferably posted in the room, ( so that punters canc come back if they want to) and covering as many genres as possible, preferably stuff that normal people have a chance of having heard of. When I did a few shows, I tried to put in a bit of everything.. to try to appeal to a wide variety of tastes. Of course, Brothers in Arms, or Hotel California(Live..'Hell Freezes) will fill any room...;) but not sure what it tells anyone...

Yesterday I spoke to a neighbour and his brother who'd both been at the show on Saturday. Their first comment was ''Too much technobabble'. At first I thought they meant dealers talking 'tech specs', but it turns out they also disliked the preponderance of electronic music. They're younger than me but retired, and pretty squarely in the major 'hi-fi geek' demographic.
Of course part of the 'mission' has to be to get younger people interested in decent hi-fi, so I'm not arguing against demoing using current popular music.. but....

Just a little more on what we listen for and how...

I like to hear stereo soundstaging, tonal accuracy and realistic portrayal of voices and instruments. Essentially, what seems to me to be 'neutral', with the 'kit' getting out of the way and with 'presence'..by which I mean , perceptually, as little as possible between me and the performance.

I know people who are obsessed with getting ever deeper...more powerful bass. If that's their 'bag'...

A good friend always, without exception, describes every positive change perceived in his system, usually by a change of wires..., as 'the sound opening out'...whatever that means.

I'm not even getting into 'PRAT', 'Pipe and Slippers', or systems which 'Impose', or 'superimpose' an obvious character.. a 'boing-boing' propulsiveness, or a 'leading with leading edges' rhythmicality.

Yer pays yer money.....
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Are whippet thrashers making a comeback? Like supertweeters. Can they be external, or is integrating them into the relevant component preferable?
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Absolutely Sue, this is world's foremost resource in broadcasting furtherment of Verekerism & Tiefenbrunites in its form of Earthiest (of the flat verity) who motto's in broad colloquial semi northern accent "If it's not naim it's shite" to "Aye lad, Linn times way better" From its early beginnings in the mid 70's of hawking LP12's and Niat 2's around in the back of a minivan, to the Halcyon days of odd handshakes/hair leg showings/nipple grasping, to the cryā€™s of are you on the square brother in the late 80's where "You were no one without a naim" was banded about with great distain on those that couldn't muster a six pack and DBL's. Passing through the lean period of leaked factory "tune-dem emailsā€ This is where the term Whippet thrashing & toe tapper was born in an effort to combat the arrogance of that period in audio snobbery (flat earth type). It is an affectionate term given to people that like that very specific type of musical replay. Categorically It is not a derogatory slang term for certain types of professional people/academics/Blue collar middle management types etc. Certainly not implying that they have an inflated sense of uniqueness or an unwarranted sense of entitlement. Could be construed as overly emotional when their beliefs are called into question, can be easily offended and unable to deal with opposing opinions.

No, whippet thrashing and toe tapping is an everyday occurrence on PFM and long may it continue with veve!
 
CoherentSystems said:
This is where the term Whippet thrashing & toe tapper was born in an effort to combat the arrogance of that period in audio snobbery (flat earth type).
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I donā€™t understand the term ā€˜whippet-thrashingā€™? Sounds decidedly unpleasant. Iā€™ve met a fair few whippets and they are really cool and chilled-out creatures. Maybe my favourite dogs. I understand whippets being a northern England stereotype, but I donā€™t see how that would apply to Naim (southern) or Linn (Scottish). Please explain.
 
CoherentSystems said:
Absolutely Sue, this is world's foremost resource in broadcasting furtherment of Verekerism & Tiefenbrunites in its form of Earthiest (of the flat verity) who motto's in broad colloquial semi northern accent "If it's not naim it's shite" to "Aye lad, Linn times way better" From its early beginnings in the mid 70's of hawking LP12's and Niat 2's around in the back of a minivan, to the Halcyon days of odd handshakes/hair leg showings/nipple grasping, to the cryā€™s of are you on the square brother in the late 80's where "You were no one without a naim" was banded about with great distain on those that couldn't muster a six pack and DBL's. Passing through the lean period of leaked factory "tune-dem emailsā€ This is where the term Whippet thrashing & toe tapper was born in an effort to combat the arrogance of that period in audio snobbery (flat earth type). It is an affectionate term given to people that like that very specific type of musical replay. Categorically It is not a derogatory slang term for certain types of professional people/academics/Blue collar middle management types etc. Certainly not implying that they have an inflated sense of uniqueness or an unwarranted sense of entitlement. Could be construed as overly emotional when their beliefs are called into question, can be easily offended and unable to deal with opposing opinions.

No, whippet thrashing and toe tapping is an everyday occurrence on PFM and long may it continue with veve!
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Gosh!.. I must be very, very, out of touch. I have genuinely never heard the term 'Whippet Thrashing' before..and though I'm certainly very firmly in the resistance to what used to be called the 'Linn-Naim hegemony', perhaps now better described as a 'Duopoly', I'm none the wiser after reading the above.....:confused:
 
Tony L said:
I donā€™t understand the term ā€˜whippet-thrashingā€™? Sounds decidedly unpleasant. Iā€™ve met a fair few whippets and they are really cool and chilled-out creatures. Maybe my favourite dogs. I understand whippets being a northern England stereotype, but I donā€™t see how that would apply to Naim (southern) or Linn (Scottish). Please explain.
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Tony

It is a play on word's form the 70's comedy skit show ' Wheel tappers & Shunters soical club' toe tapping is obvious, but we need a front end tag line to go with it, so up north whippet thrashing was a past time, it fitted well and its like fish & chips, been used for many a year. So it is not literal whippet thrashing!
 
Here's my whippet, never thrashed... OK, he's a greyhound, really.

6W3NUR.jpg
 
Mullardman said:
A major divide I detect is between rhythm and melody. Of course, all music contains both.. but the emphasis varies. I'm generally drawn to melodic vocals and to instruments which 'echo' the human voice. That's not to say I dislike rock, or even electronically generated music. It's just a question of emphasis.
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This is another area we are all different. Iā€™ve always been far more interested in texture and polyphony than melody. As an example I have always found Mozart hard to deal with as it is all melody, yet I love say Webern, Reich, electric Miles, Can, shoegaze, Aphex Twin etc.
 
I'm pretty sure Tony has made it up. So, running with the gag I'm taking 'whippet thrashing' as a metaphor, not unlike 'flat earth'. Not entirely sure what it's actually a metaphor for (just as I'm not entirely sure I completely understand what distinguishes a flat-earth system) but for now, my working hypothesis is that we could use it as a qualifier to distinguish a particularly militant or dogmatic flat earther. Imagine a flat-earther who is also a Yorkshireman and you're probably mostly there.
 
CoherentSystems said:
Tony

It is a play on words from the 70's comedy skit show ' Wheel Tappers & Shunter's Social Club'. Toe tapping is obvious, but we need a front end tag line to go with it, so up north whippet thrashing was a pastime, it fitted well and it's like fish & chips, been used for many a year. So it is not literal whippet thrashing!
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FIFY.

And still never heard the term 'Whippet Thrashing' ..past or present... until today. I'd imagine that a lot of Northerners, Whippet owners or otherwise, might find it a bit offensive and condescending, irrespective of any manufactured commentary on Hi Fi.
 
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