New Naim Owner needs cd advice
- Thread starter Chris Gallagher
- Start date
Chris Gallagher
pfm Member
I did borrow some nac 5 but it still sounded harsh albeit a little less.
Chris, great job auditioning so many variables. Very insightful. Thanks for sharing.
Having lived with a 102 for nearly 25 years I can tell you it's a harsh mistress (especially in combination with the 180). It is however, tremendously musical in my opinion. The closest ting to live music I've ever found (outside of 82 and 52). It, alsong with all olive and chrome bumper series Naim products do something with music I've never been able to duplicate with anything else. I guess it's partly the forward presentation and all the pRAT stuff that people say about it. I cannot claim to know. But, if you like what it does, absolutely stick it out and figure out how to make it work. The trick is to tame a bit of the harshness without losing the detail and excitability you get with the traditional Naim stuff. The best thing I've found over the years is a single shelf from a company called Mana Acoustics. This is a glass shelf, on spikes, on a metal rack, on spikes, that you "tune". It's quite transformative. Many people used these shelves on all their Naim components, even speakers. Many people have stacked the shelves several layers deep for each component. I never liked what it did to the sound of any of the other components personally. Made them sound to holographic and took too much of the edge off. But the 102 really sings without losing any detail or excitability. It will have a deeper sound stage and roundness to the music but not overblown or too Hi-Fi'y.
The other thing that really helps the 102 is the interconnect. I use an older Chord no longer available but beware of some high end cables because they tend to brighten the sound in pursuit of detail. You'll want something that smooths the midrange a bit. I would take a serious look at a WitchHat interconnect. It will take some of the edge off and open things up a bit.
Keep us posted!
Todd
Having lived with a 102 for nearly 25 years I can tell you it's a harsh mistress (especially in combination with the 180). It is however, tremendously musical in my opinion. The closest ting to live music I've ever found (outside of 82 and 52). It, alsong with all olive and chrome bumper series Naim products do something with music I've never been able to duplicate with anything else. I guess it's partly the forward presentation and all the pRAT stuff that people say about it. I cannot claim to know. But, if you like what it does, absolutely stick it out and figure out how to make it work. The trick is to tame a bit of the harshness without losing the detail and excitability you get with the traditional Naim stuff. The best thing I've found over the years is a single shelf from a company called Mana Acoustics. This is a glass shelf, on spikes, on a metal rack, on spikes, that you "tune". It's quite transformative. Many people used these shelves on all their Naim components, even speakers. Many people have stacked the shelves several layers deep for each component. I never liked what it did to the sound of any of the other components personally. Made them sound to holographic and took too much of the edge off. But the 102 really sings without losing any detail or excitability. It will have a deeper sound stage and roundness to the music but not overblown or too Hi-Fi'y.
The other thing that really helps the 102 is the interconnect. I use an older Chord no longer available but beware of some high end cables because they tend to brighten the sound in pursuit of detail. You'll want something that smooths the midrange a bit. I would take a serious look at a WitchHat interconnect. It will take some of the edge off and open things up a bit.
Keep us posted!
Todd
Chris Gallagher
pfm Member
Thanks Todd
really appreciate you taking the time to explain that. I have been leant some attenuation devices which whilst taking away some harshness do lose a little of the soundstage and detail.
I’ll check out the interconnects, I have kindly been leant a chord chameleon silver plus lead and In The process of switching them around with vinyl:cd and streamer to see if I can notice a difference. Not sure I can so far!
thanks again, btw the 102 came with a napsc but I wondered what upgrades you would recommend. I have also bought a cd5x.
thanks again
Chris
really appreciate you taking the time to explain that. I have been leant some attenuation devices which whilst taking away some harshness do lose a little of the soundstage and detail.
I’ll check out the interconnects, I have kindly been leant a chord chameleon silver plus lead and In The process of switching them around with vinyl:cd and streamer to see if I can notice a difference. Not sure I can so far!
thanks again, btw the 102 came with a napsc but I wondered what upgrades you would recommend. I have also bought a cd5x.
thanks again
Chris
Sorry for the long delay. Not sure how much I'm going to say will be relevant since you may have made some new discoveries along the way but my opinion on upgrades is that a great sound system is an accumulation of little changes over time. Unless someone has the resources to go out and by Naim reference right out of the gate, the system is going to take some refinement to really dial it in the way you like it. Basically doing exactly what you're doing.
There has been some great advice in this thread but your direct experience is the most relevant. What I've heard you say so far, in order of relevance, is that you "Took amps to hi fi shop and sounded really great and fine at volume with naim cd player." This tells me that recapping is not the issue. I will have to agree with Tiggers that components needing recap do not account for the excessive harshness you were experiencing but I don't doubt their is some truth in what Mike Hughes had to say. Especially for a refined ear and maybe something that's been really used and abused.
Another thing to know about plugging your system in to that environment is that it allows your components to take advantage of all the tweaks and high end pieces available. You were probably operating off a dedicated electrical spur, quality reference racks/platforms, the best interconnects for Naim gear, speakers that complement Naim equipment etc. Maybe even playing their CD's or streaming? The shop will tend to play the best mastered and produced source material available. And then there's the room treatment. All of this and more plays into an excellent listening experience. All that is to say, it should now be obvious your 102 & 180 are capable of GREAT sound.
Let's take things one topic at a time:
You had a few different statements about cables but I I'm not 100% clear on the outcome. You said:
"Swapped cables to naim (borrowed) - major difference"
"I did borrow some nac 5 but it still sounded harsh albeit a little less."
"I have kindly been leant a chord chameleon silver plus lead and In The process of switching them around with vinyl:cd and streamer to see if I can notice a difference. Not sure I can so far!"
Based on your statements I am really curious about the the first one that made the "major difference". That's where I would go whatever that was, assuming it doesnt cost a bunch. The nac a5 is one I would definitely focus on too. You say it made things a little less harsh. That is exactly how you build the system to the way you like it. Little improvements here and there. I'd recommend that change.
Based on what others and you have said (I don't have experience with the KEF's), the KEF's sound like a bit of a challenge for the already forward and somewhat aggressive Naim gear but I wouldn't lose hope yet. I am really compelled by the Focus Rings justin65 mentioned. I would imagine they're not super expensive. It has been my experience that not so subtle improvements are achieved with various speaker footing.
Additionally, the advice from cesare on playing with toe-in is spot on. In fact, play with all the parameters. How wide apart the speakers are, distance seating area is from speakers, and toe in. A rule of thumb is speakers 1/3 distance from wall and listening position 1/3 from back wall. Another rule of thumb is speakers distance from each other is the same distance from center line of two speakers to listening position. In other words, a perfect triangle. The final rule of thumb for speaker setup is the toe in should have the inside line of your speaker lined up to the listener. As you sit, you should be able to site right down the side of the speakers inside wall.
All of those so called "rules" are really just starting points or guidelines. Placement of speakers from wall has huge affects on sound stage and bass control. I place my speakers much closer to the wall then the prescribed norm to boost bass and improve focus of the sound while sacrificing sound stage. Just my taste with my systems current configuration.
Start with setting up your speakers using the rules of thumb. Then move your couch or chair out of the listening space and move your speakers closer and further from the wall. See if you have a preference. Once you dial that in it's time to find seating position.
Move yourself from the back of the room towards the front with your head at listening height, aligned center with your speakers of course, and listen for that sweet spot. Once you move into the sweet spot for your speakers you'll hear it. Too far back and it might not sound engaging. Too close and it might be too harsh. Play with it.
Once you've found the distance sweet spot, play with toe in. Kneel in the distance position, turn your balance all the way so only one speaker is playing and have a mate slowly rotate your speaker from extreme tow-in to flat, and back until you find the best sound. Then do the other if you want, but they should be the same. This next part is important. Do the same exercise with your best sounding source, and your worst. You will get a different result. Find your compromise.
It has been my experience that a system like yours would benefit from a fairly wide stance on the speakers, 1/3 from the wall behind, and listener 1/3 from back wall in a perfect triangle, with speakers toed-in as initially described.
Someone said this was one of the least upgradeable pre-amps. I think that is true if you're looking for off the shelf plug in options but in actuality it is probably the most upgradeable. Naim purposely (like most manufacturers) honks up the design of their lower level components to encourage an upgrade path. Their are some simple things that can be done to improve the 102, and some more technical things that really alter the sound. And the cost of the actual parts between something like the 102 and the 52 is a pittance. This is not my field of expertise but their are a number of guys who really know these things inside and out and can dial them in. My go to guy hear in the states is Neil James. Probably not an option for you with all the Brexit stuff going on but I'm sure their are guys over there that can modify the 102 in ways that would surprise you. This is a very in depth topic but I will say this. Be very, very careful about how you modify your 102. The magic of the Naim line not appreciated by many people is it's ability to reproduce live music in a way that captures the excitement of it. Not all are on board with this and it's important for you to figure out if that aspect of Naim gear is something you can recognize and if you can, do you even like it. Will it be a priority. This is not a right or wrong question. It's a matter of preference and whatever you like is the only priority. If you like a more hi-fi sound with lot's of detail, sound stage and roundness to the music, then their are a number of aftermarket suppliers who feel the same and produce products that will take the edge off your Naim gear and give you those attributes. If you are someone who focuses more on the emotional aspect of the music then upgrades are a little more challenging. Sometimes a straight up recap with external tweaks is the best route if you can't find someone who really knows the difference. And for the record, every Naim tweaker will tell you they remain true to the "Naim sound". And I'm sure they believe they do, it's just that their seems to be a tiny majority of us oddballs that can really hear it AND appreciate it.
So, no judgement here on what appeals to you. If were talking about upgrades to the 102 I would repeat my earlier recommendation for the Mana shelf. In fact, play with all kinds of different shelves. Set it on some bricks or spare pieces of granite, marble countertop from your local stone dealer. Try it on press board, and then two pieces of press board with bluetack between them. Experiment. I would also encourage adding a Hi-Cap. Keep playing with interconnects. Try the Witchhat. It has a money back guarantee so no loss if you don't like it. And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, start investigating all the aftermarket options. But maximize its' stock potential first if you can.
Kind of a moot point to some degree since you already bought a CD5x. Good choice by the way. PerF suggested adding a Flatcap. I wholeheartedly agree. I have the straight up CD5 running EDIT: My CD5 is running off a modified hicap wit the equivalent rails of a supercap. The CD5 is specifically running off an Avondale TPR4 regulator inside the HiCap. I love it. But is has been said that the CD5x is "overblown" by anything higher then the Flatcap, and that it was designed with that specific external power source in mind. it sounds like you have a really great local dealer who is willing to let you experiment with different options. I'd experiment with both flatcap and hicap to see what you like best. Either one will be an upgrade.
The shelf the CD sits on is pretty important, but doesnt have to be expensive. I had an appointment with my local Naim dealer some years back so I could do some experimenting with CD players while a tech from the Naim factory was in town. One of the things this tech showed me was "the best" (his words) shelf you can put a Naim CD player on. Two pieces of particle board/press board with 4 pieces of bluetack in between them. If you don't know, bluetack is just a soft, malleable clay like material you can buy at any hardware store. Give it a try. You have almost nothing to lose.
Not much I can say here. The amp is what it is. They do sound different on different surfaces. For all components the characteristic changes are similar. Hard surfaces like stone make the music more direct, forward, potentially harsh. Softer surfaces make it more holographic, sound stagey, takes the edge off. It varies with thick hard wood vs thinner vs thin wood shelf supported by four small touch points in a rack vs the top of a wood structure with a lot of support under it vs thin stone or thick. Etc. Experiment.
Their are some simple tweaks that can improve the 180, like the internal grounding strategy and few other odds and ends. Again, not my field of expertise but their are some real sharp guys who can tweak the amp to suit your taste. Again, just like the pre-amp, be certain you know what is important to you and the person making recommendations can deliver it. Maybe take a look here to get an idea what I'm talking about: http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/naim/power_amps.html
That's probably more then enough for now. Look forward to your updates and discoveries. Really enjoy and benefit from actual experience everyone shares on this forum. Carry on!
Todd Hutchinson
There has been some great advice in this thread but your direct experience is the most relevant. What I've heard you say so far, in order of relevance, is that you "Took amps to hi fi shop and sounded really great and fine at volume with naim cd player." This tells me that recapping is not the issue. I will have to agree with Tiggers that components needing recap do not account for the excessive harshness you were experiencing but I don't doubt their is some truth in what Mike Hughes had to say. Especially for a refined ear and maybe something that's been really used and abused.
Another thing to know about plugging your system in to that environment is that it allows your components to take advantage of all the tweaks and high end pieces available. You were probably operating off a dedicated electrical spur, quality reference racks/platforms, the best interconnects for Naim gear, speakers that complement Naim equipment etc. Maybe even playing their CD's or streaming? The shop will tend to play the best mastered and produced source material available. And then there's the room treatment. All of this and more plays into an excellent listening experience. All that is to say, it should now be obvious your 102 & 180 are capable of GREAT sound.
Let's take things one topic at a time:
Cables
You had a few different statements about cables but I I'm not 100% clear on the outcome. You said:
"Swapped cables to naim (borrowed) - major difference"
"I did borrow some nac 5 but it still sounded harsh albeit a little less."
"I have kindly been leant a chord chameleon silver plus lead and In The process of switching them around with vinyl:cd and streamer to see if I can notice a difference. Not sure I can so far!"
Based on your statements I am really curious about the the first one that made the "major difference". That's where I would go whatever that was, assuming it doesnt cost a bunch. The nac a5 is one I would definitely focus on too. You say it made things a little less harsh. That is exactly how you build the system to the way you like it. Little improvements here and there. I'd recommend that change.
Speakers
Based on what others and you have said (I don't have experience with the KEF's), the KEF's sound like a bit of a challenge for the already forward and somewhat aggressive Naim gear but I wouldn't lose hope yet. I am really compelled by the Focus Rings justin65 mentioned. I would imagine they're not super expensive. It has been my experience that not so subtle improvements are achieved with various speaker footing.
Additionally, the advice from cesare on playing with toe-in is spot on. In fact, play with all the parameters. How wide apart the speakers are, distance seating area is from speakers, and toe in. A rule of thumb is speakers 1/3 distance from wall and listening position 1/3 from back wall. Another rule of thumb is speakers distance from each other is the same distance from center line of two speakers to listening position. In other words, a perfect triangle. The final rule of thumb for speaker setup is the toe in should have the inside line of your speaker lined up to the listener. As you sit, you should be able to site right down the side of the speakers inside wall.
All of those so called "rules" are really just starting points or guidelines. Placement of speakers from wall has huge affects on sound stage and bass control. I place my speakers much closer to the wall then the prescribed norm to boost bass and improve focus of the sound while sacrificing sound stage. Just my taste with my systems current configuration.
Start with setting up your speakers using the rules of thumb. Then move your couch or chair out of the listening space and move your speakers closer and further from the wall. See if you have a preference. Once you dial that in it's time to find seating position.
Move yourself from the back of the room towards the front with your head at listening height, aligned center with your speakers of course, and listen for that sweet spot. Once you move into the sweet spot for your speakers you'll hear it. Too far back and it might not sound engaging. Too close and it might be too harsh. Play with it.
Once you've found the distance sweet spot, play with toe in. Kneel in the distance position, turn your balance all the way so only one speaker is playing and have a mate slowly rotate your speaker from extreme tow-in to flat, and back until you find the best sound. Then do the other if you want, but they should be the same. This next part is important. Do the same exercise with your best sounding source, and your worst. You will get a different result. Find your compromise.
It has been my experience that a system like yours would benefit from a fairly wide stance on the speakers, 1/3 from the wall behind, and listener 1/3 from back wall in a perfect triangle, with speakers toed-in as initially described.
Naim 102 Pre-Amp
Someone said this was one of the least upgradeable pre-amps. I think that is true if you're looking for off the shelf plug in options but in actuality it is probably the most upgradeable. Naim purposely (like most manufacturers) honks up the design of their lower level components to encourage an upgrade path. Their are some simple things that can be done to improve the 102, and some more technical things that really alter the sound. And the cost of the actual parts between something like the 102 and the 52 is a pittance. This is not my field of expertise but their are a number of guys who really know these things inside and out and can dial them in. My go to guy hear in the states is Neil James. Probably not an option for you with all the Brexit stuff going on but I'm sure their are guys over there that can modify the 102 in ways that would surprise you. This is a very in depth topic but I will say this. Be very, very careful about how you modify your 102. The magic of the Naim line not appreciated by many people is it's ability to reproduce live music in a way that captures the excitement of it. Not all are on board with this and it's important for you to figure out if that aspect of Naim gear is something you can recognize and if you can, do you even like it. Will it be a priority. This is not a right or wrong question. It's a matter of preference and whatever you like is the only priority. If you like a more hi-fi sound with lot's of detail, sound stage and roundness to the music, then their are a number of aftermarket suppliers who feel the same and produce products that will take the edge off your Naim gear and give you those attributes. If you are someone who focuses more on the emotional aspect of the music then upgrades are a little more challenging. Sometimes a straight up recap with external tweaks is the best route if you can't find someone who really knows the difference. And for the record, every Naim tweaker will tell you they remain true to the "Naim sound". And I'm sure they believe they do, it's just that their seems to be a tiny majority of us oddballs that can really hear it AND appreciate it.
So, no judgement here on what appeals to you. If were talking about upgrades to the 102 I would repeat my earlier recommendation for the Mana shelf. In fact, play with all kinds of different shelves. Set it on some bricks or spare pieces of granite, marble countertop from your local stone dealer. Try it on press board, and then two pieces of press board with bluetack between them. Experiment. I would also encourage adding a Hi-Cap. Keep playing with interconnects. Try the Witchhat. It has a money back guarantee so no loss if you don't like it. And if you really want to go down the rabbit hole, start investigating all the aftermarket options. But maximize its' stock potential first if you can.
CD Player
Kind of a moot point to some degree since you already bought a CD5x. Good choice by the way. PerF suggested adding a Flatcap. I wholeheartedly agree. I have the straight up CD5 running EDIT: My CD5 is running off a modified hicap wit the equivalent rails of a supercap. The CD5 is specifically running off an Avondale TPR4 regulator inside the HiCap. I love it. But is has been said that the CD5x is "overblown" by anything higher then the Flatcap, and that it was designed with that specific external power source in mind. it sounds like you have a really great local dealer who is willing to let you experiment with different options. I'd experiment with both flatcap and hicap to see what you like best. Either one will be an upgrade.
The shelf the CD sits on is pretty important, but doesnt have to be expensive. I had an appointment with my local Naim dealer some years back so I could do some experimenting with CD players while a tech from the Naim factory was in town. One of the things this tech showed me was "the best" (his words) shelf you can put a Naim CD player on. Two pieces of particle board/press board with 4 pieces of bluetack in between them. If you don't know, bluetack is just a soft, malleable clay like material you can buy at any hardware store. Give it a try. You have almost nothing to lose.
180 Amplifier
Not much I can say here. The amp is what it is. They do sound different on different surfaces. For all components the characteristic changes are similar. Hard surfaces like stone make the music more direct, forward, potentially harsh. Softer surfaces make it more holographic, sound stagey, takes the edge off. It varies with thick hard wood vs thinner vs thin wood shelf supported by four small touch points in a rack vs the top of a wood structure with a lot of support under it vs thin stone or thick. Etc. Experiment.
Their are some simple tweaks that can improve the 180, like the internal grounding strategy and few other odds and ends. Again, not my field of expertise but their are some real sharp guys who can tweak the amp to suit your taste. Again, just like the pre-amp, be certain you know what is important to you and the person making recommendations can deliver it. Maybe take a look here to get an idea what I'm talking about: http://www.acoustica.org.uk/t/naim/power_amps.html
That's probably more then enough for now. Look forward to your updates and discoveries. Really enjoy and benefit from actual experience everyone shares on this forum. Carry on!
Todd Hutchinson
Rico
Bloody Colonials
My 10 bucks worth.
The 102 can work well. I agree with those who've said it can be harsh. I prefer 'brittle'. However, set up right it's still bloody good.
It amazes me that - with so many Naim (and very loudly ex-Naim) "experts" here - that you've all forgotten what a NAPSC does for the 102!!
My recommendations:
1. NACA5. 3.5m per side, minimum. Terminated properly, with Naim plugs (they do sound better), or Deltron.
2. Serviced 180, and 102. That's a couple of thousand pounds worth of kit from the mid-90's, best get it performing at it's best. It shouldn't cost too much to bring a 102 up to snuff.
3. Get a NAPSC. And make sure it's as far away from your rack as you can get it.
4. Black SNAIC. With the white print on the side, not the early green one.
5. Naim CDX2 or NDX.
6. Get your system optimised. No crappy mains strips, wobbly racks, tarnished connections. Get the basics right. Use a Naim 'lavender' interconnect. Or a HiLine if you can pick one up cheap.
7. If you're going ES14's please get a (serviced) HiCap, it'll help with grip from the 180 to take charge of the ES14's.
Now sit back and enjoy a great system for less than the pre and power (with a CD2/CDX) cost new!
Cheers
The 102 can work well. I agree with those who've said it can be harsh. I prefer 'brittle'. However, set up right it's still bloody good.
It amazes me that - with so many Naim (and very loudly ex-Naim) "experts" here - that you've all forgotten what a NAPSC does for the 102!!
My recommendations:
1. NACA5. 3.5m per side, minimum. Terminated properly, with Naim plugs (they do sound better), or Deltron.
2. Serviced 180, and 102. That's a couple of thousand pounds worth of kit from the mid-90's, best get it performing at it's best. It shouldn't cost too much to bring a 102 up to snuff.
3. Get a NAPSC. And make sure it's as far away from your rack as you can get it.
4. Black SNAIC. With the white print on the side, not the early green one.
5. Naim CDX2 or NDX.
6. Get your system optimised. No crappy mains strips, wobbly racks, tarnished connections. Get the basics right. Use a Naim 'lavender' interconnect. Or a HiLine if you can pick one up cheap.
7. If you're going ES14's please get a (serviced) HiCap, it'll help with grip from the 180 to take charge of the ES14's.
Now sit back and enjoy a great system for less than the pre and power (with a CD2/CDX) cost new!
Cheers
Del monaco
Del Monaco
I used to own Olive Naim. Exciting listen but could sound harsh and edgy at times. I think the occasional harshness has to be lived with if you like the drive and excitement of the Naim sound. I had civilised speakers and it could still make me grimace on some recordings. I also found it could sound a little congested with orchestral music. My Yammy is much more even handed which I prefer.
Chris Gallagher
pfm Member
Thank you for all the recent comments. It's a steep learning curve and I am slowly getting up to speed. What a helpful and kind bunch of people to take the time and effort to help out. The length of some of the above posts is overwhelmingly in good way.
I have a Napsc and although cash is tricky at the moment and so I'm trying to decide if they need servicing or upgrading! Can't quite decide which way to go and at the moment and I cant do both. Currently situated on a new Atacama evoque shelf unit and using a kindly leant Chord chameleon silver plus lead but cant really tell the difference from the standard grey naim lead.
I have a Napsc and although cash is tricky at the moment and so I'm trying to decide if they need servicing or upgrading! Can't quite decide which way to go and at the moment and I cant do both. Currently situated on a new Atacama evoque shelf unit and using a kindly leant Chord chameleon silver plus lead but cant really tell the difference from the standard grey naim lead.
Bill Colledge
pfm Member
Phone or e,mail Naim Service and Class A, quoting your 102 and 180s serial numbers and ask if they have any record of your amps being serviced.
The real issue could be your speaker cables not matching, not sure if you mentioned what they are?, BUT a Nap 180 is quite sensitive to exactly this - both length and capacitance.
Again..., service the power amp and separate mains usually makes difference from bad to good.
Chris Gallagher
pfm Member
Yes I emailed them some weeks ago but never got an answer. Any thoughts on the best email to contact them?
Bill Colledge
pfm Member
Personally I would phone, Darren at class A always answers. Less experience of phoning Naim.
Class A closed on Mondays.
Class A closed on Mondays.
Chris Gallagher
pfm Member
Yes Ive done that and Darren hasn’t serviced either of them.
Chris Gallagher
pfm Member
Ive gone for some linn k20 and both 6m.
Thats a good match