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Nap 180 v 250

M

mikegreenwood

pfm Member
I have a Nap 180 that has Avondale boards. Recent service, but would like any information on a comparison between the two amps, the aforementioned 180 and a 250. or even if the 250 was fitted with Avondale boards. Comments appreciated.
I did own a 250 many years back and was impressed with its performance. But! Am I close with the 180?
 
I did tests back in '09 in my listening room with my olive NAP 180 comparing it to an olive NAP 250. I love the sound of the 180 but the 250 had a lot more presence and 'weight', and more of the Naim PRaT signature. The differences were substantial. By comparison the 180 has a more relaxed easy going sound, especially for a Naim. I bought the 250 and was happy for many years, keeping the 180 on a second system.
Ironically I later sold the 250 as I upgraded the electronics of my main system to Vitus, but the 180 remains happily powering the secondary system.

What is your source? I find the 180 matches well with the aggressive Naim CDX it is partnered with. Yet with the sublime Naim CDS3 cd player the 180 was too polite. The 250, on the other hand, really matched the CDS3 to perfection, giving it the punch it required.
 
Source is in the main a SRM turntable fitted with a Technoarm and a AT. PTG 33 cart.
Don’t play a lot of CDs but I use a Uniti as a pre amp so it has a CD player incorporated.
Speakers are EPOS 16s. Cables Witch Hat.
Maybe need to do an A/B myself as dealers I’ve asked are reluctant to voice opinions.
Most say they have not done a comparison with the 180 fitted with Avondale boards.
 
I have used a UQ as preamp with my Avondale serviced std. Nap 180.

Nice performance but a dedicated Naim preamp was much better even powered from the Nap internal psu.

Guess above will be preferrred in your situation rather than going 250 unless your speakers are very demanding.[EDIT, now notice the ES16, indeed they're demanding !]
 
I bought a 180 25 years ago when they were newly introduced and was very happy with it. About 15 years later I got a pair of SBLs and, because everyone said you should, I bought a used 250 of a similar vintage to the 180 and it sounded exactly the same. When you consider that they both contained exactly the same NAPA amplifier boards of the same issue (6 I think) that's not too surprising.

Last year I bought a pair of Shahinian Obelisks and the 250 didn't produce any treble from the speakers. A lengthy trawl of the internet revealed the surprising news that the power supply regulator boards in the 250 didn't like delivering current into low impedances at high frequencies and the 4 tweeters in the obelisks gave a 2 ohm impedance throughout the treble range, a 180 was suggested as a better choice. I dragged my old 180 out of retirement and it was much better than the 250 with my "new" speakers!

I subsequently sold the 250 and bought another 180 with a view to fitting Avondale modules in place of the Naim boards but first tried the 180, one of the last ones made (late 2001), as received.
It sounded awful! Totally lacking dynamics and PRAT (but possibly more relaxed easy going?).
A check inside showed the output stage bias adjustment to be very low (and equal on both channels), and after adjusting both channels to the recommended 36 - 38 ma it sounded great, just the same as my original 180.
I speculated that my original 180, newly introduced at the time, had been set up for optimum performance whilst the later one, just about to be replaced by the new NAP200, might possibly have been set up so as not to outshine the upcoming new model!

Once fitted with the Avondale NCC200 boards the 180 (newer one but it doesn't matter) there was noticeably more fine detail and deeper bass.
With the NCC200s replaced with LesW's new NCC220s it was a further improvement.

My conclusion was that the (correctly set up)180 was just as good as the 250 but a 180 fitted with Avondale modules is better than both.
If your speakers are a difficult load then I would think the Avondaled 180 would be the favourite.
 
I've had both 250s and 180s driving active SBLs though neither were fitted with Avondale boards. I was initially driving the SBLs with a pair of 140 but bought a pair of 250s and plugged them in with great expectation but what came out was a grave disappointment. Sure the bass was great, driving and tuneful but the midrange... the lack of clarity compared to the 140s was surprising. I suspected the 250s were in need of a service so dutifully sent them off. On their return, pretty much exactly the same story. At this point I bought a pair of 180s. The midrange clarity was back and most of the 250s bass. So with the stock amps, in my experience, there is a trade off between the two. Having heard the 180s, the midrange on the 250s wasn't good enough for me and so both 250s languish unused and the 180s remained in the system. I've now taken a knife to the 180s so any further comparisons wouldn't be valid.
 
The 250 has always been constrained by its power supply, but it is said supply that gives it the refinement over the non-regulated amps. The raw power supplies of the 'lesser' amps have dynamics and drive that are missing from the NAP250.

Enter the NCC200 or variants of. These have a front end filter that give back some of the refinement the 250 has. In addition, if you connect it to a raw power supply like that found in the 180 then you get the full force of it behind the amp. Refinement and drive - it'll walk all over a stock NAP250. We made a few monoblocks with these boards and a CAP6 module for power. That fooled a Naim rep into thinking there was a NAP300 in the room.
 
MJS said:
The 250 has always been constrained by its power supply, but it is said supply that gives it the refinement over the non-regulated amps. The raw power supplies of the 'lesser' amps have dynamics and drive that are missing from the NAP250.

Enter the NCC200 or variants of. These have a front end filter that give back some of the refinement the 250 has. In addition, if you connect it to a raw power supply like that found in the 180 then you get the full force of it behind the amp. Refinement and drive - it'll walk all over a stock NAP250. We made a few monoblocks with these boards and a CAP6 module for power. That fooled a Naim rep into thinking there was a NAP300 in the room.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks guys, Mine is an olive 180 and was re- capped and Avondale NCC 200 boards fitted by Witch Hat. TBH.I’ve been happy with it, just that niggle you sometimes have the grass is greener etc. I can see how a stand alone pre amp would be better although I like the flexibility of the Uniti and I’m not a great CD fan.
The Uniti is standard and I’m not clear if bringing it up to date would be a sound improvement or just a facility improvement.
 
I’ve had both and they’re both excellent but different. The 250 sounds richer and weightier but also a bit slower. At the time I had Epos ES14s and preferred the 250 but many people would call it the other way.

I’ve never heard an Avondaled amp but from what I’ve heard of them, yours may well be rather better than a stock 250. I’d try and compare them before committing to anything but I guess if you took a punt on a good used one, you sell it on at very little loss if it doesn’t work out.

Rich
 
Tell me! I had one for 19 years. AH! well we all make mistakes. Maybe I can look out for one. Can it take the Avondale NCC 200 boards?

Rgds.
 
mikegreenwood said:
Can it take the Avondale NCC 200 boards?
Click to expand...

It depends on the model - bolt down or chrome bumper. They would be a straight drop-in to a chrome bumper 160 but not the bolt down.

Given the similarities, you have to ask why the 160 is considered better than 180? The amp boards are the same and they both have the same size transformer with separate windings for each channel. The main difference is the compromised earthing arrangements in the 180. If you're prepared to forgo the preamp psu, you can correct the latter very easily. More of a topic for the DIY section though.
 
I’m using a Uniti for the pre amp section. Take it the pre amp supply is within the 4 pin or is it a 5 pin, umbilical, need to look, or does it need unsoldering inside of the 180.
 
It involves some work inside the 180 so not to be undertaken unless you are happy wielding a soldering iron. I have mentioned about this in the DIY section previously but I can't find the link straight off.
 
Oh and the usual caveat applies that this would probably remove a lot of the residual value of the 180 so you have to be sure it is what you want to do.
 
Change of preamp will upgrade your system much more than poweramp.I had 160,now having 250 and tried 180 few month ago A/B 180/250 and decided to keep 250(CB).Also tried 250cb/250 olive ...CB is much better,more alive amp...
But must say 160 bolt down is better from all this amp's.Thinkin' to find one or to go valve way for my quad.Never like naim amp which runs hot.160 always stone cold.
 
I've read a few times that people find the 250 slow. I've never understood why (or even what this means).
 
I went from a 180 to an Avondale S100 (uprated power transformers) and the difference was significant (102 pre-amp with avondale PS). The step up to a Avondale Grad 1 pre-amp though was a revelation.

Dave
 
Re: Fast/Slow amps. This is literally how you perceive the speed of the music. A fast amp can handle transients well and doesn't appear bloated by bass. It's often a function of the power supply arrangement with regard to transformer and reservoir capacitance sizing. The NAP250 has the regulator boards between the PSU and amp. I wouldn't call it that slow though.

Perhaps the most obvious example of slow amp in this context is the souped up Saxo teenager* with bass booming out the back a good half a beat behind the rest of the music.

*Insert current trend of cheap but adaptable hot hatch and sub woofer. I don't see these where I now.
 
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