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Naims 552dr not so good after all

H

Hound

pfm Member
Hi all, where to start, well.

Like a few others, over the years (about 30) I built up a naim system, ended up with a 552dr, 500dr, full fraim, etc, etc. I was going for a nd555 to replace my nds, but back then I didn't feel it was any better, and certainly not worth spending about £9 k. So I ended up with a dCS rossini player and clock, both secondhand, but certainly much better than what naim could offer.

Now move forward a few years and dCS come up with the apex upgrade, well was about to go and get it done, when a vivaldi apex dac turns up for not much more money, so obviously I went for that.

This is where it gets, well at the time a bit strange. As I was told to try running my vivaldi apex direct to an amp, using the vivaldi's built in volume control. Now I tried this a few years ago with my rossini, and back then the 552dr won.
But now with apex, things have changed. Running with the 552, the sound lost detail, top end sparkle, and all round was just not as good, I was very shocked, as the naim 552 with a 500 is a great combo, or that's what I thought.
I couldn't believe the difference and how much holding back the 552dr was doing, I tried to put it back in, but it didn't last more than one song.
Now before the naim guys jump down on me like what happened over on the naim forum, and the thread got deleted, as I guess naim and a few 552 owners did like reading what I had discovered. My 552dr had only been serviced a year before, plus I had morgana burndy cable ( much better than the standard naim one) and it was nicely sitting on a twin fraim rack.

But my question is, anyone else found the 552 to be such a road block? Plus I now can see why the naim S1 is much better than the 552. One good thing for naim I guess, is that the 500 is still OK, but the 552 certainly is showing its age, when it gets showed up massively by a built in volume control.

But as said above, I wasn't expecting this result at all, as up till a few weeks ago the 552dr was to me one of the best pre amps you could get, so very wrong, so anyone else found the 552 lacking, or just me.

Plus any other dCS owners, especially apex guys, try running direct if you can, you may find that pre amp can go on ebay.

Cheers dunc
 
What hifi said at the end of last year

...the most capable digital to analogue converter we have ever hear.....
 
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I think that if a good passive works in your system it will better any active and probably save/make you a lot of money.
 
I've always thought the 500 series was a total disaster apart from the actual 500 possibly. It always seemed to destroy the music totally to my ear which is probably why I never bought any of it.

I'll stick with my CB and olive kit until somebody comes up with something better at sensible price. Been waiting 20 years so far ...

DCS gear always sounds good to me - but at a price point I'm not prepared to take seriously.
 
Dac straight in to power amps has been my preferred set up ever since I first tried it with a Chord Hugo. It's one box less, shorter signal and gives better resolution. Down side can be it can sound a bit dry and lacking some body if you don't get it right. It just becomes a case of careful component matching.
 
Actually I'm a maverick amongst BM owners since I seem to have tweaked my 82 to the point it's actually sufficiently transparent to leave in. Couldn't have been done without TP and Avondale power supplies though! The noise floor on Naim's 317 based supplies is way too high.
 
It does make you wounder at what point in the naim source range, does the 552 become the stumbling block, also doesn't say much for the rest of the naim pre amps apart from maybe the S1.
Little point having a great source when the pre amp is just killing it so much.
I can now see why certain other so called upgrades I tried over the years, didn't work as they should have done, I was already well past what the naim could do.
 
I'm not completely surprised. Years ago I spent several weeks switching between a Klimax Kontrol 1/D and a resistor (Creek OBH-22). I sold the KK and regard preamps as a waste of money, unless you have some specific need for one. As long as your source has a healthy output it stands to reason that a wire without gain will be more transparent than a preamp circuit, however expensive.
 
colasblue said:
I've always thought the 500 series was a total disaster apart from the actual 500 possibly. It always seemed to destroy the music totally to my ear which is probably why I never bought any of it.
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IIRC, the NAP500 was the last JV-designed amp. I had the privilege of visiting the Naim factory when it was just released, but sadly Julian was not well enough to host visitors. I seem to think that's when Naim started to lose its North Star.
 
Some years ago I tried an Icon ps3 phono direct to a 250 and preferred it to my 52/scap. As I was vinyl only that was that and I was a bit richer.
 
Interesting thread! When I went from 92 to 52 and eventually to 552 I found the upgrade from 135s to 500 the biggest step, but the preamps also were holding things back, the 552 let through by far the most. At that time (pre DR) I thought bypassing the preamp gives more clarity and transparency, but the preamp somehow contributed to a more exciting and emotionally involving performance. So I guess it's a case of picking the poison, though I don't know if it's the same with the latest DRed units.

Later on I looked for the most transparent amps and used some KR audio SE tube amps with those gigantic valves for a couple of years: yes, it was extremely much more transparent and clear than the 500 series (again non-DR), but I was always bothered by some kind of "glas ringing" sound which especially with piano I really found irritating.

So I moved back to Naim: yes it sounded muffled in comparison, all that valve clarity was gone, but the music came back and was fun again. I learned that for different people different things are important: some would say the KR is way better, some would say yes but only in terms of transparency, etc. etc. etc.

Again later I heard a Statement demo, and bingo, that married both of it: Naim plus clarity! Finally they proved it was possible. For a price of course...
 
Like jpk above, I went the Naim upgrade route, only for me, 32.5/72/52/552 with many powers to 135s. The 552 was def. better than the 52, which was the darling of the time, esp. with Pots 8. I changed 135s to EAR valved monos, but with 552; exc. and no mismatches. I then replaced the 552 with EAR's 912 to pre. I never realised there was so much life in my system ! Synergy prob. played a small part, but with hindsight, the 552 was relatively lifeless. Maybe a function of s/s versus valves (into gigantic ProAcs and then big ESLs.
 
We all the best pre amp is no pre amp, buy as I said, I just couldn't believe what the 552 was doing to the sound. Basically it was almost not worth having the dCS vivaldi, as its potential was being held back massively.



I guess if you have a nd555 it might not show up as much, but then naim owners do find that the S1 inpovement is also a good one.

But I have lost nothing, and gained hugely in sound quality, even though I do now run with a pre amp, just not with naim now
 
I am a Naim fan but.......
After fiddling with a few of their amps with various preamps, found out the best setup is a 1990 Classe Audio CP35 with a Naim NAP 110 with Phoenix boards and this kit won by quite a margin.
This little preamp easily beats my 42, 32.5 (all with Avondaled Hicap) and puts to shame my Supernait I use as a preamp with a 250.2 in another room.
For me, Naim makes very good amps and CD players but no longer amazes me with their other stuff, tuner apart.
 
Woodface said:
This is turning into a chorus of tiny violins;)
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Ah it is the 552 doing it, when recorded they were regular size violins but the 552 squashed them :p

I can well believe if you have no need for pre-amp functionality you are better off without one, regardless of make or model.
 
Hound said:
Hi all, where to start, well.

Like a few others, over the years (about 30) I built up a naim system, ended up with a 552dr, 500dr, full fraim, etc, etc. I was going for a nd555 to replace my nds, but back then I didn't feel it was any better, and certainly not worth spending about £9 k. So I ended up with a dCS rossini player and clock, both secondhand, but certainly much better than what naim could offer.

Now move forward a few years and dCS come up with the apex upgrade, well was about to go and get it done, when a vivaldi apex dac turns up for not much more money, so obviously I went for that.

This is where it gets, well at the time a bit strange. As I was told to try running my vivaldi apex direct to an amp, using the vivaldi's built in volume control. Now I tried this a few years ago with my rossini, and back then the 552dr won.
But now with apex, things have changed. Running with the 552, the sound lost detail, top end sparkle, and all round was just not as good, I was very shocked, as the naim 552 with a 500 is a great combo, or that's what I thought.
I couldn't believe the difference and how much holding back the 552dr was doing, I tried to put it back in, but it didn't last more than one song.
Now before the naim guys jump down on me like what happened over on the naim forum, and the thread got deleted, as I guess naim and a few 552 owners did like reading what I had discovered. My 552dr had only been serviced a year before, plus I had morgana burndy cable ( much better than the standard naim one) and it was nicely sitting on a twin fraim rack.

But my question is, anyone else found the 552 to be such a road block? Plus I now can see why the naim S1 is much better than the 552. One good thing for naim I guess, is that the 500 is still OK, but the 552 certainly is showing its age, when it gets showed up massively by a built in volume control.

But as said above, I wasn't expecting this result at all, as up till a few weeks ago the 552dr was to me one of the best pre amps you could get, so very wrong, so anyone else found the 552 lacking, or just me.

Plus any other dCS owners, especially apex guys, try running direct if you can, you may find that pre amp can go on ebay.

Cheers dunc
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Duncan,

I'd love to know where you found a cheap APEX Vivaldi? Any more available :D

Ive been running my Rossini and clock direct into my mono-blocks for a while now, initially because of an intermittent balance issue on the pre-amp, but I found little difference SQ-wise (only a slight preference for using the pre). I will get the pre-amp sorted but given I am now digital only I'm not sure if the pre (Halcro DM10) will go back into the system.

My Rossini is away for the APEX upgrade so hopefully get it back in 2 or 3 weeks. I'm told the APEX board output stages are the main improvement on the board and make driving power amps direct even better.
 
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...which means there IS a preamp: just inbuilt into the source - of course adding a second preamp in the chain could make things worse if not needed...
 
The purpose of a pre-amp, in my opinion, is to modify the sound, such that it goes from being cold and dead, to being something that’s enjoyable to listen to. Naim pre-amps were always compromised by their power supply. Can’t you just upgrade the PSU instead? Oh, hang on …
 
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