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Most impactful LP12 related upgrades

sonddek said:
It's possible to have a less accurate reproduction which reveals more about the tune. For example, you might listen to a live radio broadcast on a pocket transistor with almost no ability to reproduce frequency extremes, and hear the melody and harmony easily. Subsequently listening to the same recording on a full range accurate turntable system in which platter speed is slightly inconsistent and pitch noticeably wobbly might 'sound' better, but the transistor radio could still win the tune dem.
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I’m convinced this is why so much traditional ’flat earth’ kit tends to have a similar rather forward and mid-centric balance. I’d certainly argue the classic tune dem champ of a well sorted LP12, Naim amp and Linn Kans sounds so fun and funky because it filters so much information out. No bass, no real soundstage etc, but what is left is simple to interpret. It also just grooves with many genres and allows audio salesmen to frantically tap their foot, which they love to do.

The thing that amazes me is that some dealers keep that ‘forward thin and funky’ thing going into systems that cost a fortune, even digital ones. It is just an aesthetic IMO. Something that sounds very different to what one hears in a studio or via good neutral headphones. Also something that falls apart the further one moves away from mainstream pop/rock music choices. It is more than pushing the mid forwards, but that is certainly a factor to my ears. Say ‘tune dem’ and I have a mental image of how that system sounds and how I’d likely swiftly tire of it.
 
Tony L said:
I’m convinced this is why so much traditional ’flat earth’ kit tends to have a similar rather forward and mid-centric balance. I’d certainly argue the classic tune dem champ of a well sorted LP12, Naim amp and Linn Kans sounds so fun and funky because it filters so much information out. No bass, no real soundstage etc, but what is left is simple to interpret. It also just grooves with many genres and allows audio salesmen to frantically tap their foot, which they love to do.

The thing that amazes me is that some dealers keep that ‘forward thin and funky’ thing going into systems that cost a fortune, even digital ones. It is just an aesthetic IMO. Something that sounds very different to what one hears in a studio or via good neutral headphones. Also something that falls apart the further one moves away from mainstream pop/rock music choices. It is more than pushing the mid forwards, but that is certainly a factor to my ears. Say ‘tune dem’ and I have a mental image of how that system sounds and how I’d likely swiftly tire of it.
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Very well put.

A big AMEN, from this blatant LP12 fanatic... :cool:👍
 
The word ‘tune’ has a formal meaning in musical circles. The word ‘demonstration’ has an agreed meaning. The expression’tune dem’ surely means what the person who coined the phrase intended it to mean. It’s a verbal shorthand for the process Richard describes, and no amount of arguing that the coiner misused the term ‘tune’ will change that.
 
Tony L said:
I’m convinced this is why so much traditional ’flat earth’ kit tends to have a similar rather forward and mid-centric balance. I’d certainly argue the classic tune dem champ of a well sorted LP12, Naim amp and Linn Kans sounds so fun and funky because it filters so much information out. No bass, no real soundstage etc, but what is left is simple to interpret. It also just grooves with many genres and allows audio salesmen to frantically tap their foot, which they love to do.

The thing that amazes me is that some dealers keep that ‘forward thin and funky’ thing going into systems that cost a fortune, even digital ones. It is just an aesthetic IMO. Something that sounds very different to what one hears in a studio or via good neutral headphones. Also something that falls apart the further one moves away from mainstream pop/rock music choices. It is more than pushing the mid forwards, but that is certainly a factor to my ears. Say ‘tune dem’ and I have a mental image of how that system sounds and how I’d likely swiftly tire of it.
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As this is an LP12 thread, the "forward thin and funky" which you identify is not caused by the LP12 imho. I think it is a Naim thing. I run my LP12 though a valve pre and is not forward and thin, anything but in fact and a large soundstage.
 
ColinC said:
As this is an LP12 thread, the "forward thin and funky" which you identify is not caused by the LP12 imho. I think it is a Naim thing. I run my LP12 though a valve pre and is not forward and thin, anything but in fact and a large soundstage.
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Yes, in the system I describe I’d put it down to the Kans, which are very crisp and open with little bass, and exaggerated in most such systems with the hopeless capacitance mismatch between the ubiquitous AT95-based K9 cartridge and the 470pF Naim 322 MM phono stage. I always hated the K9 without understanding why, it was always searingly bright and thin in this context to my ears. My choice at that time (after wasting money on a K9 I didn’t like thanks to magazine and dealer hype) was a Stilton Audio Nagaoka MP-11 that just slaughtered it. In hindsight I understand this was a phono stage capacitance mismatch. I also didn’t have a LP12 at this point, I liked my 12” singles too much so bought a very early Xerxes, which was certainly a leaner sounding deck than a Linn of that era. I’d not describe it as thin or forward though. It just lacked a bit of the Linn’s warmth which matches Kans so well.

Part of the problem in the pre-CD era is we were judging everything using vinyl systems and few of us regardless of whether we were end users, reviewers or dealers really understood the technology. Loading etc had all but been forgotten after the mid-70s once the foot tappers took over. The skillset was lost and remained so until recent decades when we can now all access technical information freely online.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
The word ‘tune’ has a formal meaning in musical circles. The word ‘demonstration’ has an agreed meaning. The expression’tune dem’ surely means what the person who coined the phrase intended it to mean. It’s a verbal shorthand for the process Richard describes, and no amount of arguing that the coiner misused the term ‘tune’ will change that.
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The process Richard describes is more than that. It's assessing all the parts and their contributions to the whole - which seems to me a much better thing than merely listening out for the tune as defined in "musical circles". Richard is choosing (as is his absolute right) to define "tune" more widely. Whilst those in musical circles might have a problem with the definition, his approach is, as you say, absolutely right in terms of judging hifi. It's when the listener concentrates on what we might consider the main tune that listeners might decide they prefer kit which doesn't reproduce the gamut of timbres as well as it does, say, a vocalist.

Which of these two things the originator of the idea meant, I'm not sure!
 
If you can hum along to it, it’s a tune.

If what’s coming out of the speakers doesn’t follow what you’re humming, your expectation of tune , then the system is less tuneful.

I don’t know how to state it more simply.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
As I say ‘tune dem’ is just verbal shorthand.
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I think the shorthand is amply expanded here: https://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/index.php/FAQ_-_Tune_Dem. It seems pretty straightforward even if I question a fair bit of it.

I observe that for evaluating impactful upgrades to the LP12, some of my favourite 20th century classical music need not apply. I'm not sure how you would sing along to a Boulez piano sonata. And the late composer might have become apoplectic (given his didactic evangelism of an uncompromising philosopy) if anyone had told him they could use the method for "evaluating the musical performance".
 
So, use a piece with some tunes for this aspect of your evaluation. I’m sure Boulez would prefer that.
I think it’s a good way to get right back to basics, and cut through the hifi bullshit to remember what we are hoping to achieve.

To be clear, I view the tune dem approach (if not necessarily the method) as a necessary, but not sufficient, step in assessing hifi. It’s basically asking yourself ‘am I having a good time yet?’
 
So the missus is right then: we are just a load of nerds with no-one else to talk to. Instead of a special handshake, just go out and buy a Linn.
 
ColinC said:
As this is an LP12 thread, the "forward thin and funky" which you identify is not caused by the LP12 imho. I think it is a Naim thing. I run my LP12 though a valve pre and is not forward and thin, anything but in fact and a large soundstage.
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I think this is partly why the LP12 gets a load of stick, as a lot of the time it's only been heard in a duff flat earth set up where it isn't the culprit for what you can hear. Which somewhat makes a mockery of source first.
 
NickofWimbledon said:
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🙋‍♀️
 
david ellwood said:
If you can hum along to it, it’s a tune.
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I don't disagree strongly. You are referring to a melody (aka a tune). However, what Richard would define as "tune" is far broader than that and relates to the gamut of elements within a performance, some of which are, by definition, un hum-able.

With some caveats, I prefer your definition of a tune, even if it is rather simplistic.

However, I actually prefer Richard's definition of "tune dem" as it corresponds what I wold do: listen to a much greater range of aspects of a performance, which allows for a more informed judgment. My only objection is to the word tune which is mis-applied (again imo).

Regardless, the (totally) different understandings of what tune, and therefore tune dem actually means for you both, renders the term nebulous, being polite (as I have always believed it to be).

If what’s coming out of the speakers doesn’t follow what you’re humming, your expectation of tune , then the system is less tuneful.
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This is nonsense on more than one level.
 
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