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Microlinear vs Shibata vs Special Line Contact Stylus’

retseldrib

retseldrib

pfm Member
Ref my LP12, I have an appointment this Saturday to try out the Audio Technica OC9XML (Linn Koil), OC9 XSH and the OC9XLS which have the above stylus profiles respectively.

My understanding from various searches is that the Special Line Contact stylus tip reaches further into the record groove and retrieves more detail than the Shibata than the Microlinear. In addition, the Special Line Contact is supposed to have a greater life expectancy than the others in turn.

Given that the stylus is a consumable then I don’t want to spend any more money on an MC cartridge.

Does anyone have experience of these carts .... any thoughts or commments. - thank you.
 
Pecking order in my opinion:

SLC
ML
Shibata.

The Micro Line is in many ways the sweet spot between performance and value. Not too hard to set up, detailed and tracks well. Can be quite good at finding groove damage and debret but not terrible. Top end can be a bit fierce but again not terrible and they last for ages. Apparently the nature of the profile means that it retains its shape as it wears down. I don't know but they do last very well.

I'm not a fan of the Shibata. Easily the most difficult to align stylus I've used and very fussy about record quality. Bit more detail than the ML but it's not worth it as a lot of your records will sound so bad you won't want to play them. Very good with a good record and set up nailed but just too fussy the rest of the time.

The Special Line Contact is something else. Worth noting that this is the profile Audio Technica use on the best cartridges they make. It's uncannily good. Fairly quiet in the groove and forgiving of poor vinyl yet highly detailed. Tracks brilliantly with a clean, clear top end. For a high-resolution stylus it's amazingly forgiving.

For performance I'd go with the SLC. For value the ML. Wouldn't thank you for a Shibata. That's my take on it.
 
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Lurch said:
The OC9s are very good for their price but the Hana ML will blow them into the weeds.
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A friend has the Hana ML and is really happy with it. I don't know how it compares to the OC9s but it is quite a bit more expensive, new anyway. I'd like to try one as I've only heard good things about them. From what I've heard a warmer sound the OC9, which is on the cool side of neutral I'd say.
 
Mr Pig said:
A friend has the Hana ML and is really happy with it. I don't know how it compares to the OC9s but it is quite a bit more expensive, new anyway. I'd like to try one as I've only heard good things about them. From what I've heard a warmer sound the OC9, which is on the cool side of neutral I'd say.
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The one I've linked to is £640, (roughly the same as a new upper OC9) I've had one here on my Bardo with a Conqueror 3C and it was very good, walked all over the T'fig Axia S I had before. Only moved it on for a Koetsu Vermilion (now an RSP). Also had an OC9xML which I stuck on the Conqueror whilst waiting for the Vermilion (Hana sold V quick) and whilst it didn't have the detail, richness, bass and delicacy of the Hana ML it didn't disgrace itself, it's a veritable bargain.
The Hana ML is a bargain even at £1049 and punches well above its price point, it definitely deserves the great reviews it's received.
 
Alvarado said:
I don't blame you.
What are you proposing to substitute out?
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Unusually it seems, I currently have a Rega Ania on my LP12 - bought new with my used LP12 in August 2020; if the dealer says its all ok then Ill probably move it on here on PINKFISH Classifieds - assuming that I buy one of the Audio Technica carts above.
 
I would be interested to know the difference between the top end AT MM carts (I have the AT-VM740ML) and the alternative AT MCs you'll be trialing. I'm looking at a change but keen to know whether you get a 'night and day' difference by fitting something from the lower end of the MC pecking order, you may see a difference between the Rega MC and the AT MC too (or not!)

The MM's advantage at the higher end of the AT range is not just in price (& in the fact that the carts dont wear out like the MC ones of course) but also in substitutability, the ML, SH and SLC stylii can all be simply swapped in and out of the same cart (540 or 740s both accept any of these stylii) meaning no faffing about with cart (and even arm) removal to experiment with the stylus types.
 
Alvarado said:
I would be interested to know the difference between the top end AT MM carts and the alternative AT MCs you'll be trialing.
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So would I. People get this idea that MC carts are inherently better but it's nonsense. A good MM is a top arm will comfortably beat a MC in a lesser arm and MM carts have strengths of their own. I've enjoyed both but you know what? I reckon I prefer MM.
 
The Ania is already a great cart, if it was me (and sorry if this throws a spanner in the works) I’d look at upgrading the Phono Stage which might yield better results. The way I look at it, you can have the best cart in the world but it’s what the Phono Stage does with the signal it produces that counts.
 
Ah, Phono Stages. That's another quandary. I have a Croft 25 preamp, said to be a great phono stage with a free amplifier thrown in. It's difficult to buy a phono stage for an affordable price (<£1.5k?) and still be confident it would produce better results than the system you have. Until I can do a home test I'm sticking with what I've got. We don't know what the OPs situation on PSs is.

If I were the OP (OK I'm not but it'd be a good place to be in) I'd ask the dealer to fit an AT-540 or 740 cart and play around with the ML, SH and SLC stylii (they slide in and out of the same cart with relative ease. Ask if he has them/can get them in advance, he might not have them in). Have a run off, and decide which one you prefer. Then get him to switch the cart for the relevant AT MC cart (ML/SH/SLC) to see if it's better than the Rega MC you have. Then buy (or stick with) the one you like. It would mean you have more confidence in your buying decision and your dealer doesn't have as much faffing with arms and carts. Also a shorter time between A/B tests for your ears, which makes choosing easier.

I'm assuming the difference between these stylii shapes at MM will reflect that in MC carts. Maybe a rookie mistake...:)
 
Mr Pig said:
So would I. People get this idea that MC carts are inherently better but it's nonsense. A good MM is a top arm will comfortably beat a MC in a lesser arm and MM carts have strengths of their own. I've enjoyed both but you know what? I reckon I prefer MM.
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Based on the [generally] accepted analog hierarchy - turntable | tonearm | before cart and phono stage [I would put the phono stage before the cart, but that's just me...] I won't argue with the scenario you describe.
[Top arm with MM cart will beat Lesser arm with MC..]

So, no surprise there, because I feel that you are handicapping the MC with a lesser arm.

But THIS... "I reckon I prefer MM."

Coming from you MR PIG - a voice I have come to trust - THIS is a very big call indeed.
[Not disagreeing. Frankly, I have no experience with MM...]

Can you be bothered mentioning a few of your favourite MM cartridges at the price of the DENON DL-103(R) - a hotly contested price point - around £379.00?
[Price-tested at ANALOGUE SEDUCTION]

I accept that these MM favourites will have their own tonearm requirements and quirks, so could you perhaps suggest one that would work well on a medium-to-heavy arm?

It is my hope that we can compare your favourite MM with both our DENON DL-103R and DENON DL-110 MCs [both big over-achievers - with different strengths] on the same tonearm.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.
 
Interesting conversation this. I have a Hana SL that I think is probably nearing its hours limit. Service exchange cost is about £500. I have a low hours V15 VxMR with a Jico stylus. The AT-VM740ML looks attractive and a range of stylus are available. I also have a pair of DL103 that I have fitted to wooden bodies, one with standard conical and one with a Shibata stylus. Messing about with these or trying a AT-VM740ML seems more attractive than laying out on a rebuild of the Hana SL
 
The 740ML is better than the SH, especially at the end of side, with no distortion or mistracking, and without any noticeable treble loss. It is brighter too, more like a properly loaded regular DL103 – which in spite of its conical stylus clears most difficult tracks.
But the ML/Microridge/SAS stylus profile (same thing, different brand names) is the best.
I’d love to try an ML 103, but is it relevant?
 
Mr Pig said:
So would I. People get this idea that MC carts are inherently better but it's nonsense. A good MM is a top arm will comfortably beat a MC in a lesser arm and MM carts have strengths of their own. I've enjoyed both but you know what? I reckon I prefer MM.
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Without wanting to go too far OT, there are sound physical reasons why a light coil moving around a magnet will be a more sensitive and higher-resolution device than the alternative. That has to be tempered by the fact that the former needs much higher gain, in general is more expensive, etc.

Talk of "lesser arms" seems to avoid the point that side by side on the same arm, and ceteris paribus, a good MC will sound better than a good MM. The gaps between good MMs and cheap MCs have certainly narrowed or arguably vanished in the critical £3-600 area, but the idea fashionable on PFM at the moment that MMs are "better" should be taken with a kilo or so of salt.
 
Just to throw in a little about my experiences with AT33PTG 1 and 2 with ML stylii. I went onto these from a succession of MM's. The last of which were K9 an Goldring 1042 which were then followed by a Denon 103R.
I really liked the Denon103R after the MM's but I broke the cantilever early on. I managed to get hold of my AT33PTG mk 1 for the same price as the Denon and never looked back.
For me, the moving coils seemed to have a clarity that i just never had with any of the MM's i have tried or heard.
The AT33PTG had much better tracking and less end of side distortion than the Denon and lost nothing in the process.
It also ended up giving a very long service life and only wore out a couple of years ago after 10 years of fairly frequent use.
I replaced it with an AT33PTG mk 2 and if anything, that one sounds even better.
Im a huge fan of this cartridge. For the price it gives more than a taste of the high end.
 
Many thanks for all the suggestions so far; in response:

I already have a phono-stage which I have demoed against other well known phono-stages around the £2500 mark. To my ears I have chosen the best phono-stage,

I have also been down the MM route on my LP12 - an MC cartridge is much better in terms of information retrieval - regarding musicality I'm not sure what to say but I take the point - often I enjoy music in my car stereo system just as much as my hifi.

My Rega Ania (probably better suited to a Rega TT) is a great sounding cartridge and at the time was the best sounding AVAILABLE cartridge that I could afford - the ATs were not available at the dealer I bought the LP12 from plus the Rega has an eliptical profile which is inferior (on paper at least) to the AT carts I am interested in. How they sound in comparison is another question and one which I hope to find the answer to on Saturday.

I am very uneasy about changing the cartridge myself not least because of the intricate process of alignment etc - although the Rega ANIA just slotted into the three bolt attachment of the LP12 - so buying a used HAMA or the like I would need to ask a dealer to fit this for me.
 
retseldrib said:
I am very uneasy about changing the cartridge myself not least because of the intricate process of alignment etc - although the Rega ANIA just slotted into the three bolt attachment of the LP12 - so buying a used HAMA or the like I would need to ask a dealer to fit this for me.
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It's not as difficult or intricate as you fear, and it's nice to be able to do it yourself. You just need a decent alignment protractor, a straight edge if you're doing VTA, and perhaps some awareness of different geometries (Baerwald, Stevenson, etc). My protractor has the charm of being ex-Derek Jenkins.
 
chartz said:
The 740ML is better than the SH, especially at the end of side, with no distortion or mistracking, and without any noticeable treble loss. It is brighter too
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The 740ML is not better than the 750SL , I have had both ( still use the 750SH ) and there is no difference in tracking or end of side distortion . They have a slightly different presentaion though , to my ears the ML is leaner whereas the SH has a fuller midrange .
I also found the SH more forgiving of worn records .

They are just different takes on the same cart , just pick your prefered flavour .
 
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