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MC Cartridge advice please

G

gwindy

Member
Hello, I've recently updated my amp and TT to Yamaha A-S1200 and Technics 1200GR using a Ortofon 2M black and amp internal phono stage. I want to up grade the cartridge to a MC with a cost in mind up around £1200.
I seem to spend all my spare time researching the possibility's but I'm going round in circles especially trying to match a cartridge to the internal phono.
At the moment I'm considering the Ortofon Cadenza red but before I commit to the outlay I'm wondering if anyone has any experience with this set up or advice on compatibility? Or any other considerations i should be looking at?

Regards
Graham
 
There is basically only one way to match a cart' and a stage. Using your ears.

Buy carefully s/h, ideally here. That way you win twice - pay less (or get "more"), and you should lose nothing if you don't like it and decide to move it on.
 
I believe the 2M Black prefers a slightly unusual loading for a MM cart. If you're using an inbuilt stage without loading options, you may not be getting the best out of it. Also, it's a Shibata tip, which are very sensitive to accurate setup, in particular VTA, I understand. I reckon the 2M Black, set up properly, is better than most inexpensive coils and you're right to look at a bigger budget, but if you're spending that on the cart, I'd probably not be looking to use the internal phono stage in an amp, unless it's known to be stonkingly good.

I went from a 2M Black to a Hana ML, and got good results.
 
Vinny said:
There is basically only one way to match a cart' and a stage. Using your ears.

Buy carefully s/h, ideally here. That way you win twice - pay less (or get "more"), and you should lose nothing if you don't like it and decide to move it on.
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Only once you've narrowed down the options to carts that are physically compatible with the arm.
 
Looks like your Yamaha amp's MC stage is set for loading at 50 Ohms. That is very surprising for an integrated amp - they'r almost always set at 100 - and quite limits your cartridge choice, but I would think Ortofon Cadenzas would be a good choice.
 
If you like the 2M Black I'd look at Audio Technica carts. The 2M carts are not typical of the Ortofon sound being leaner and brighter. You see AT carts on Technics turntables very often so I reckon they must be a good match. Which is not surprising considering they are probably designed with each other in mind
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
I believe the 2M Black prefers a slightly unusual loading for a MM cart. If you're using an inbuilt stage without loading options, you may not be getting the best out of it. Also, it's a Shibata tip, which are very sensitive to accurate setup, in particular VTA, I understand. I reckon the 2M Black, set up properly, is better than most inexpensive coils and you're right to look at a bigger budget, but if you're spending that on the cart, I'd probably not be looking to use the internal phono stage in an amp, unless it's known to be stonkingly good.

I went from a 2M Black to a Hana ML, and got good results.
Click to expand...
I've had the 2M black on a couple of TT now and aware of how fiddly it is to set up after much 'tweaking'. From what I've read/watched the internal phono is ok and i don't really want to go down the many boxes route again, certainly the 2M black sounds great but it has a few miles on the clock now and looking for replacement. I was also thinking of sticking with the mm phono and get the 2M black LVB. Thanks for the feed back
 
Elephantears said:
Looks like your Yamaha amp's MC stage is set for loading at 50 Ohms. That is very surprising for an integrated amp - they'r almost always set at 100 - and quite limits your cartridge choice, but I would think Ortofon Cadenzas would be a good choice.
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Thanks for the information, that's part of the confusion i had come across, the 50 Ohms seems to rule a lot of carts out but i wasn't sure how important that was. If something was rated as 47 Ohms would this also be good choice?
 
Have you checked the condition of the stylus. Under a microscope ? Shibata tips are quite long lived, I think. And the generator should still be good even after the tip is worn, hence why you can get new replacement styli.

Of course, if you’re just fancying a change, and want to dabble with MC, that’s great and have fun, but don’t junk the 2M Black if you do.
 
Sue Pertwee-Tyr said:
Have you checked the condition of the stylus. Under a microscope ? Shibata tips are quite long lived, I think. And the generator should still be good even after the tip is worn, hence why you can get new replacement styli.

Of course, if you’re just fancying a change, and want to dabble with MC, that’s great and have fun, but don’t junk the 2M Black if you do.
Click to expand...
I've not had a MC and so was wanting to try that and the excuse is a lot of my old equipment is going to be used by my son including my old TT (Rega RP8) so thought the 2M black would be a good fit on that. I have loved the 2m black and have no issues with it.
 
The Cadenza series specs recommend loads from 50 to a few hundred Ohms so your Yammy is OK for the Red. I’ve a Bronze on my 1200G and tried it for a couple weeks on my 1200GR, not quite as good obvs but still sounded great.

Normally suggest AT33PTG/II as a sweet spot on a GR, it’s where I ended up after trying a couple dozen alternatives but it wants 100 Ohms loading, not that it wouldn’t work but defo a suck it and see. Other option but you’re against a stage - Dynavector P75 with 20XL or XX2, however both those Dyns are OK with 30 Ohms loading so may well be worth considering.
 
gez said:
Only once you've narrowed down the options to carts that are physically compatible with the arm.
Click to expand...

Only if the arm is oddball, or you are looking at an oddball cart'.
In 35 years or so, I have only owned something like 6 cart's, ever, all MC. I have owned 7 different tonearms. I have never looked at a spec' for any of them except for tracking force for the cart's.
I strongly suspect that a tonearm with an effective mass of something like 6g would suit a vanishingly small selection of cart's, according to the "chart", but the ones here have worked well with all 3? 4? different cart's they have had on them.
 
The phono stage on the AS2100 is shrouded in mystery , there's lots of contradictory info on the net . I also own this amp and have spent lots of time trying to nail down loading and impedance specs .

The manual states 50r for the MC input , but it measures 100r ( I've done it ) .

I has also tried an Ortofon Quintet Bronze which sounded nice and worked well , but so did a Denon DL103 which I normall load at around 400r when I use a SUT . The DL103 lost a bit of "air" but it wasn't a disater .

MM side is the same , schematic shows 100pF right at the inlet , then 220pF further downstream that ( to me ) look like they would just add to the first caps giving 320pF in total , yet I can use an AT moving magnet cart without any hf sting , thats arounf 450pF inc cables ect .

I'm sure Yamaha are smart enough to make something that works and maybe we read too much into these things . But its safe to say I've not found a cart that didn't work with the AS2100 , and if you are specifically looking at MC carts I wouldn't worry too much the difference between 50r and 100r loading is minimal and most likely doesn't matter .

I may be able to prove this in a few weeks , I'm waiting on a Teac PE 505 which has adjustable everything so I can listen to carts at their "correct" settings and see how much it differs from the AS2100 stage .
 
early said:
The phono stage on the AS2100 is shrouded in mystery , there's lots of contradictory info on the net . I also own this amp and have spent lots of time trying to nail down loading and impedance specs .

The manual states 50r for the MC input , but it measures 100r ( I've done it ) .

I has also tried an Ortofon Quintet Bronze which sounded nice and worked well , but so did a Denon DL103 which I normall load at around 400r when I use a SUT . The DL103 lost a bit of "air" but it wasn't a disater .

MM side is the same , schematic shows 100pF right at the inlet , then 220pF further downstream that ( to me ) look like they would just add to the first caps giving 320pF in total , yet I can use an AT moving magnet cart without any hf sting , thats arounf 450pF inc cables ect .

I'm sure Yamaha are smart enough to make something that works and maybe we read too much into these things . But its safe to say I've not found a cart that didn't work with the AS2100 , and if you are specifically looking at MC carts I wouldn't worry too much the difference between 50r and 100r loading is minimal and most likely doesn't matter .

I may be able to prove this in a few weeks , I'm waiting on a Teac PE 505 which has adjustable everything so I can listen to carts at their "correct" settings and see how much it differs from the AS2100 stage .
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Thanks for the detailed information, you've put my mind at rest.
 
No problem , and while I'm dispencing pearls of wisdom :) . We have similar turntable as well , I have a 1200G and using a KAB damper made a massive difference when using "stiffer" mc carts .

It's worth bearing in mind if you go for a cadenza .
 
If this is any help, the MC cart I use in my SL1200G is an AT Art 9xi, which usually retails for around £1300 or so. Currently, you can pick one up for £999 from Audio Affair. The Art 9xi suits the 1200G nicely, so I would imagine that it would work well in your GR.

However, I would add that the quality of the phono stage is critical with MC carts, given their low output. I haven't heard your Yamaha, but I suspect that it would not compete with a decent separate stage. Trouble is that these are expensive unless you find a good buy second hand.
 
Timcat said:
If this is any help, the MC cart I use in my SL1200G is an AT Art 9xi, which usually retails for around £1300 or so. Currently, you can pick one up for £999 from Audio Affair. The Art 9xi suits the 1200G nicely, so I would imagine that it would work well in your GR.

However, I would add that the quality of the phono stage is critical with MC carts, given their low output. I haven't heard your Yamaha, but I suspect that it would not compete with a decent separate stage. Trouble is that these are expensive unless you find a good buy second hand.
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Thanks for the information. I know a separate phono would be the better option but for the time been id rather spend money on the cart and maybe down the line look at a separate phono.
 
gwindy said:
I've not had a MC and so was wanting to try that and the excuse is a lot of my old equipment is going to be used by my son including my old TT (Rega RP8) so thought the 2M black would be a good fit on that. I have loved the 2m black and have no issues with it.
Click to expand...
Much as I love the Regas, their VTA adjustment involves shims, which are not especially precise and therefore perhaps not a good companion to Shibatas.
 
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