Martin Bastin's garrard idler wheel upgrade
- Thread starter rahman
- Start date
Chorlton Analogue
Trade: Chorlton Analogue
It would be interesting to know if it's a upgrade over the cheaper perfectsound new idler wheel?
I am not shocked that a brand new idler wheel should offer an upgrade in performance. The question is, seriously how much does it improve things over a good example of a used one?
I am not shocked that a brand new idler wheel should offer an upgrade in performance. The question is, seriously how much does it improve things over a good example of a used one?
gortnipper
loose nut
What is the conclusion of the article?
I have a new production (new ~3 years ago) wheel that is identical in appearance to the Perfect Sound ones, but that I have not used yet, so I dont know if it is an upgrade or not.
I am in the middle of doing some comparison needle drop rips, and I suppose I could chuck in the new wheel at the end of these tests for A/B/.../x comparisons, which would be interesting, but that wouldnt be for a while...
I have a new production (new ~3 years ago) wheel that is identical in appearance to the Perfect Sound ones, but that I have not used yet, so I dont know if it is an upgrade or not.
I am in the middle of doing some comparison needle drop rips, and I suppose I could chuck in the new wheel at the end of these tests for A/B/.../x comparisons, which would be interesting, but that wouldnt be for a while...
Pete The Cat
pfm Member
If ever there was a rip-off it's the price of these replacement idler wheels.
Pete
Pete
Chorlton Analogue
Trade: Chorlton Analogue
I think that rather depends on what dr bastin has had to invest to stock the wheels, how much time has been necessary to research and test the article and if the "performance per pound" appears good value when the "upgrade" is scrutinised on listening test.
We should perhaps remember that the idler wheel is a pretty important piece in the equation of the turntable? Other turntable manufacturers charge 2000quid for a piece of metal to upgrade their turntables... However, I do take your point that it's not cheap. To be honest I thought the perfectsound one could not cost a penny more because it is already expensive and that's a good bit cheaper than this one...
We really need a millionaire to buy the perfectsound one, the bastin one, a bad used one and a good use one and pit them head to head....
sadly I can't help with this matter as I don't fit the criteria.....
We should perhaps remember that the idler wheel is a pretty important piece in the equation of the turntable? Other turntable manufacturers charge 2000quid for a piece of metal to upgrade their turntables... However, I do take your point that it's not cheap. To be honest I thought the perfectsound one could not cost a penny more because it is already expensive and that's a good bit cheaper than this one...
We really need a millionaire to buy the perfectsound one, the bastin one, a bad used one and a good use one and pit them head to head....
sadly I can't help with this matter as I don't fit the criteria.....
Gromit
Plasticine Dog
A moot point, and one I've often found is the question asked when upgrading to a new 'improved' drive belt on a BD turntable.
I very recently owned a Rega P7 to which I fitted the new white belts - the deck itself was only approx 8 months old so the orignal belts would've been suffering little wear. The result of the white belts? Couldn't tell much difference to be honest. It's always possible those who fit the new belts (and in this case the good Doc's new idler wheel) are hearing an improvement not necessarily as much down to the super-belt/idler, but more down to the new one not being knackered.
Peter Stockwell
Back for more ...
Martin's a top bloke if you can get to the end of the sheep track.
I purchased a Perfect Sound idler wheel, was very happy with it. Maybe softer than the old ones, dimensionally superb, definitely a little quieter in use, I would buy another. Have not seen Mr. Bastins, but if it is on par with the Perfect Sound idler, might be worth looking at if you need an idler. Manufacturing a small number of a specialty item like that deserves enough to make it worthwhile. If you do not like the price, make one yourself.
Being that the idler drive is the main source of noise in these decks, I am happy they are available.
Being that the idler drive is the main source of noise in these decks, I am happy they are available.
Pete The Cat
pfm Member
Imagine if The Perfect Sound or others manufactured every individual component for a Garrard and you assembled a completely new unit from these. I wonder what it would cost ?
I'm being flippant - as an economist I completely accept the logic that these suppliers don't have scale, need to create new processes and tool up for small production runs, obtain unique parts and only have a marginal market available to them. However there's a taking the p element above reasonable profit margin - eg I see that The Perfect Sound are charging £4.99 for 4 rubber washers "for 301 / 401" on Ebay, even B&Q who are hardly trade price would do a large pack of these for 99p. Ultimately we can each choose, it'd just be good to have the chance to try a different idler wheel and not feel a bit humiliated by paying these prices
Pete
I'm being flippant - as an economist I completely accept the logic that these suppliers don't have scale, need to create new processes and tool up for small production runs, obtain unique parts and only have a marginal market available to them. However there's a taking the p element above reasonable profit margin - eg I see that The Perfect Sound are charging £4.99 for 4 rubber washers "for 301 / 401" on Ebay, even B&Q who are hardly trade price would do a large pack of these for 99p. Ultimately we can each choose, it'd just be good to have the chance to try a different idler wheel and not feel a bit humiliated by paying these prices
Pete
Chorlton Analogue
Trade: Chorlton Analogue
What you get from perfectsound is the correct parts. You could buy them cheaper at a d I y store for sure but it would be such a pain getting exactly what is required, why not support British small business and save yourself some fuel going to and from b and q!!!
We have no links with perfectsound or bastin but this is an interesting debate...
We have no links with perfectsound or bastin but this is an interesting debate...
hairyderriere
pfm Member
I'm with electricoffers.
What a bunch of audio curmudgeons we are! I am happy that Perfect Sound and Mr Bastin make a profit. Why begrudge them a profitable income? Bills don't pay themselves. Perhaps they'd like to eat out every so often, too. And we don't have to buy their goods if we don't want to, though I'm perfectly happy to do so.
They have taken the time to develop and maintain parts for things I like and I want them to be rewarded for their efforts. In that way, they may continue to do so. So we could get the parts cheaper elsewhere. So what? We see the cost of the material but completely miss out on the value of the service that they, and others, perform. Miserly attitudes to people who support our hobby will get us nowhere - fast.
What a bunch of audio curmudgeons we are! I am happy that Perfect Sound and Mr Bastin make a profit. Why begrudge them a profitable income? Bills don't pay themselves. Perhaps they'd like to eat out every so often, too. And we don't have to buy their goods if we don't want to, though I'm perfectly happy to do so.
They have taken the time to develop and maintain parts for things I like and I want them to be rewarded for their efforts. In that way, they may continue to do so. So we could get the parts cheaper elsewhere. So what? We see the cost of the material but completely miss out on the value of the service that they, and others, perform. Miserly attitudes to people who support our hobby will get us nowhere - fast.
Pete The Cat
pfm Member
My point was about degree, if you re-read my post there's an acknowledgement of the economics of being a niche provider and an entitlement to reasonable profit. More often than not I support small or local businesses ahead of chains. But it shouldn't be hi-fi heresy to challenge a charge of £4.99 for 4 rubber washers, or a quarter of the price of a complete 401 being charged for one replacement part. Consumers have a legitimate and common sense right to question where the margin is so significant.
Pete
Pete
hairyderriere
pfm Member
Pete, I agree. But my comments were directed more at the notion that profit, in classic audio, is somehow bad. More towards the notion that somehow all of these parts should be cheaper by 'x' amount until 'y' person is happy. The cost of a 401 is hardly a fixed value and many would argue that even if you found a mint item, the likelihood is that it will need some money thrown at it to bring it back to specification. How much does all that cost? Anyone's guess. Is it worth it? For me, yes. For others, perhaps not.
My main concern is that the Bastin and Perfectsounds of this audio world don't one day decide to pack it all in since we seem such an ungrateful bunch that clucks at everything not within our psychological orbit. The margin is likely high on smaller parts since they will surely sell more of those than big tickets items. Maybe these guys have done their long-term homework and sourced items that last. Maybe they haven't. And, I repeat, no one is twisting our arms here. Ask them for a discount!
For sure, let's question where we feel we need to. But let's also remember as the vinyl using community slowly dwindles in number, that these guys are, in a way, our friends.
My main concern is that the Bastin and Perfectsounds of this audio world don't one day decide to pack it all in since we seem such an ungrateful bunch that clucks at everything not within our psychological orbit. The margin is likely high on smaller parts since they will surely sell more of those than big tickets items. Maybe these guys have done their long-term homework and sourced items that last. Maybe they haven't. And, I repeat, no one is twisting our arms here. Ask them for a discount!
For sure, let's question where we feel we need to. But let's also remember as the vinyl using community slowly dwindles in number, that these guys are, in a way, our friends.
Pete The Cat
pfm Member
Violent agreement for the most part
I can't help but think that the entry criteria for being a real hi-fi enthusiast - price - is a major factor in ours being a marginal interest.
Pete
I can't help but think that the entry criteria for being a real hi-fi enthusiast - price - is a major factor in ours being a marginal interest.
Pete
Biggus-Dickkus
pfm Member
Violent agreement for the most part
I can't help but think that the entry criteria for being a real hi-fi enthusiast - price - is a major factor in ours being a marginal interest.
Pete
Surely a real Hi-Fi enthusiast is interested for the love of the music not the equipment. The equipment is just the medium for hearing it.
Its seems to me that most on this forum who moan about prices know the price of everything and the value of nothing....
Good post hairyderriere (15) - nicely put.
Chorlton Analogue
Trade: Chorlton Analogue
It's not a quarter of the price tho because £80 x4 does not equal a good, serviced 401 with a perfect idler wheel. You do have the right to question it but you are always going to pay a premium for a low volume, brand new part. If you don't like the price or indeed cannot afford it then you make do with a pot luck used item in a similar way that many of us, myself included often choose to repair our ageing cars using second hand parts from breakers or scrapyards.
hairyderriere
pfm Member
I look at it this way - as I take a break from a great show on BBC FOUR about Thin Lizzy, that if I can still find cracking albums by musicians and performers I like (and I can), in all musical genres (and I have) at dirt cheap prices or even free (which I do) then why begrudge paying for a decently made part to play it on? I don't want a £5 idler on which to play Gorham, Moore and Lynott. I don't want 25p rubber grommets delivering indeterminate tunes on Supraphon, ECM, Capitol, Vertigo, AAA or whatever. I want to hear those discs as if I bought them on their day of release!
Don't you?
Don't you?