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Mana Foundations

J

jimmymcfarrell

pfm Member
I’m preparing to pull all my kit from it’s home on my Mana rack to make space for a 2nd rack, so I can move stuff with power supplies away from stuff without.
If I’m bothering to do this I’m going to do it properly so would like sone advice regarding a few ideas I have.
My floors are floating, floorboards, NOT ideal I know. To get them stable, secure and level my SBL’s spikes are located on pozi head screws that I have driven into the floorboards underneath, as per the recommendations in their user guide however everything I’ve read about setting up Mana gear says this NOT to do this with Mana racks.
I was wondering if it would be wise to put paving slabs down and site the Mana on them? Or maybe put screws into the floorboards first & sit the slabs on top, the screws would make levelling the slabs easier although I can’t help wondering if the forces exerted on the corners of the slabs where the screws are would be too great and risk cracking the slabs?
The trouble is it’s such an involved procedure setting everything up it’s not really possible to try it one way or the other quickly enough to obtain meaningful observations of the difference between having it with or without slabs / slabs with screws (setting everything up once is enough without trying to do it all multiple times in a day).
I’ve always had my Isobariks upstairs on a floating floor with slabs underneath them (slabs with squash balls cut in half under them in actual fact) and I’ve always wondered if this was actually beneficial or not vs having the stands just spiked directly into the floor. However it’s such a pain in the ass moving them to try out the alternative I’ve never gotten round to it & always left them on the slabs.
I know the obvious answer to all of this is to try it but you can understand why I’m reluctant to go through the setup procedure with two Mana racks multiple times in a day so I’d be very interested to hear if anyone has tried anything similar and what the outcome was. Any thoughts…..?
 
IMO, Mana is all about resonance and tuning. Rigid underpinnings are definitely best for this. I've never gotten good results with Mana spiked directly into wooden floors. As for the difference between a concrete slab and screws, I expect they're comparable. I would go with the tidier screw option.
 
If you've got some sound stages to put beneath the rack then that should allow for more stability as any discrepancies on the horizontal plane will be accommodated across the vertical plane. I've never tried setting my mana upon screws but no complaints about having spikes going directly into the wooden floor.
 
As I understand it you have carpet down on top of the floating suspended floorboards. Ideally you need to take the carpet out of the support loop as it will just provide a non rigid base to start from. As Mike Hanson has stated, the Mana stands are designed to work as a rigid system that is tuned through getting the 4 spikes under each board or glass level and equally supported. Apart from not working well, a soft base makes the setup very difficult as it will just keep moving and be out of tune. You need to do that with the whole rack. My situation is similar but do not have a carpet involved and so have used a Mana board under the rack that went onto the floating floorboards with a small amount of blutak to hold it in place and link the floor and the board together.

If you can rigidly link a slightly bigger board (thicker as well), to the floorboards with screws and then place the soundstage or rack on top, then you have what should be a good solution to your problem with a rigid base to work from.
 
There is nothing wrong with Mana on a suspended floor, in fact it sounds very good.

Yes, keeping Mana 'in tune' is important and yes, it's a lot easier to do on a hard floor. With a wood floor the spikes tend to sink in unevenly and the stand goes out of tune. It's not the end of the world, you can identify the offending spikes and pull the stand back into tune without taking it all down and once it's settled it should stay that way.

The big advantage of a wood floor is that it sounds a lot better. Having used Mana in lots of different configurations on both wood and concrete floors it is my opinion that the stands need a bit of wood in the equation. A Mana Rack on a concrete floor with no Sound Stages under it sounds harsh, cold and edgy and there isn't a lot you can do about it. Swapping the glass for boards just kills the sound and still sounds wrong. Mana only sounds balanced and rounded if there is at least one Sound Stage or board in there. However, if it's on a wood floor, it's effectively sitting on a huge Sound Stage and you get away with it. The more Sound Stages you add, the better it gets. Up to a point.

I've tried the screws in the floor thing and did not like the results. Sound was harsh and disjointed.

My advice would be to get a few Sound Stages under your Racks if you don't already have them. Not only do they help the sound but they make setting up easier because they have give in them and they take the floor out of the equation.
 
Mr Pig said:
There is nothing wrong with Mana on a suspended floor, in fact it sounds very good.

Yes, keeping Mana 'in tune' is important and yes, it's a lot easier to do on a hard floor. With a wood floor the spikes tend to sink in unevenly and the stand goes out of tune. It's not the end of the world, you can identify the offending spikes and pull the stand back into tune without taking it all down and once it's settled it should stay that way.

The big advantage of a wood floor is that it sounds a lot better. Having used Mana in lots of different configurations on both wood and concrete floors it is my opinion that the stands need a bit of wood in the equation. A Mana Rack on a concrete floor with no Sound Stages under it sounds harsh, cold and edgy and there isn't a lot you can do about it. Swapping the glass for boards just kills the sound and still sounds wrong. Mana only sounds balanced and rounded if there is at least one Sound Stage or board in there. However, if it's on a wood floor, it's effectively sitting on a huge Sound Stage and you get away with it. The more Sound Stages you add, the better it gets. Up to a point.

I've tried the screws in the floor thing and did not like the results. Sound was harsh and disjointed.

My advice would be to get a few Sound Stages under your Racks if you don't already have them. Not only do they help the sound but they make setting up easier because they have give in them and they take the floor out of the equation.
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I have not tried the screw approach as I have not needed to do so, but have tried to setup on carpet and unless your spikes go through to a solid floor and the carpet and underlay is taken out of the loop, then the setup does not work, as everything moves slightly and is likely to be out of tune.

I would agree that getting a few soundstages underneath to provide a stable base and more of the Mana effect is the best approach. But it sill needs a solid and rigid link to the floor underneath.

Mr Pig, my advice here is based on getting round the carpet problem and agree that the wooden floor is better than a solid concrete floor for Mana.
 
Yep, carpets are an enemy. I used a Stanley knife to make small slits in the carpet and underlay where the spikes would be going and then put my mana there. I think making small slits is better than forcing holes as the slit will be invisible if you ever have to move the mana. Perhaps not that much of an issue with long pile carpets, but for short pile carpets, you'll be left with wee funny looking holes that won't be as easy to hide. The slit method means a quick rub and that's it, as good as new.
 
Our situations are different, but some of it may apply here.

I have a springy wooden floor, no carpet. My rack is ultra-heavy (granite shelves) and sits in a corner, on cheap carbon blocks - supposedly anti-vibration but mainly to stop the spikes drilling into the floorboards.

I realise Mana has a different and hardcore approach, but like the others here I can't see that carpet should be part of the support. That suggests to me that you first try putting cross-head screws through the carpet and resting the Mana spikes on the screws. @windhoek 's suggestion of little cuts for the spikes should be good too, as long as you can be sure that the spikes will never sink in to the wood.

However, given @Mr Pig 's comments, all that may well sound wrong. If it does, you could then add a Soundstage (or indeed a thick sheet of wood) on top of the screw heads, with the Mana stand on that, perhaps with coins to stop spikes digging in if that proves to be an actual problem.

FWIW, we did lots of back and forth and concluded that putting HRS rubbery feet under the Naim boxes (well, phono stage, CD player and preamp) made a small difference at high volume. Doing a sense check by plonking boxes directly on the floorboards should sound a bit worse, and we all thought it did (mind you, they were visible, so I call that result unreliable).

Otherwise, the key result was that high volume makes the whole floor move - that sounded non-ideal in multiple ways, probably including microphony in the boxes. The best solution was not to fuss more over the rack but to buy some Isoacoustic Gaia feet (other brands are available) and use them instead of spikes under the speakers. This had a much bigger impact on SQ than anything we did to the rack.

Finally, with all those boxes on it, no rack is 'light and rigid' and mine is the opposite of light. We did check conventional LP12 wisdom by putting the turntable on the rack and I am happy to confirm it was horrible - £100 or so of Target (or similar) wall shelf really is the right answer there if you have a wooden floor and a turntable.
 
Would using rounded spikes be better than the long pointy ones that you get to use as feet, in the context of reducing floor penetration?

There's no doubt about, the long pointy ones sink into the floor. But perhaps spikes that only dip into a wooden floor might be better.

Fwiw, I ordered some stainless steel spikes from Voncount on eBay last week to use between frame and glass. He makes them himself (on request) so I'm sure he could make longer rounded ones to use as feet.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/voncount?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
 
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I have put my Mana racks on a long strip of perspex in the past, mainly to protect a wooden floor, and it worked very well. Currently I'm using ceramic tiles (the kind you would use on a bathroom floor) in the same way, and they also work very well. Much better than sinking screws or spikes into floorboards, in my view.
 
If a thick carpet is a problem my solution is simply to use longer spikes. Windhoek's idea of cutting the carpet is fine but you shouldn't need to go that far.

Position the stand and wiggle it sideways to get a good mark on the carpet where the spikes will go. Use a bradle or thin screwdriver to push the carpet fibers apart, this makes a hole for the spike without actually damaging the carpet. Use the same screwdriver to dig a hole in the underlay.

Standard Mana spikes are too short for a very thick carpet, the stand or the nut end up sitting on the carpet before the spike gets to the floor. So just get longer spikes. There used to be a guy on eBay called Voncount or something, nice guy who could make you spikes to order, but you'll get them somehow. Audiotech style ones are really good as they have a thinned down tip which makes life even easier. They actually sound better than Mana stainless spikes too but don't tell anyone I said that ;0)

Longer spikes, all you need.
 
windhoek said:
I ordered some stainless steel spikes from Voncount on eBay last week to use between frame and glass.
Click to expand...

Good to know he's still on the go. As he makes the spikes himself you can get them any length you like and his prices are excellent. Quality is top notch too.
 
Mr Pig said:
There is nothing wrong with Mana on a suspended floor, in fact it sounds very good.

Yes, keeping Mana 'in tune' is important and yes, it's a lot easier to do on a hard floor. With a wood floor the spikes tend to sink in unevenly and the stand goes out of tune. It's not the end of the world, you can identify the offending spikes and pull the stand back into tune without taking it all down and once it's settled it should stay that way.

The big advantage of a wood floor is that it sounds a lot better. Having used Mana in lots of different configurations on both wood and concrete floors it is my opinion that the stands need a bit of wood in the equation. A Mana Rack on a concrete floor with no Sound Stages under it sounds harsh, cold and edgy and there isn't a lot you can do about it. Swapping the glass for boards just kills the sound and still sounds wrong. Mana only sounds balanced and rounded if there is at least one Sound Stage or board in there. However, if it's on a wood floor, it's effectively sitting on a huge Sound Stage and you get away with it. The more Sound Stages you add, the better it gets. Up to a point.

I've tried the screws in the floor thing and did not like the results. Sound was harsh and disjointed.

My advice would be to get a few Sound Stages under your Racks if you don't already have them. Not only do they help the sound but they make setting up easier because they have give in them and they take the floor out of the equation.
Click to expand...
I found my Mana sounded better on concrete floors rather than hardwood. However, I do have a bunch of Soundstages under mine, which probably explains it.
 
My last house has a suspended wooden floor. My current house has a poured concrete floor. Both carpeted with underlay. My Mana went out of tune regularly in the old house, but has stayed in tune in my current house for over 10 years. Properly tuned Mana on concrete does not sound "harsh, cold and edgy". Neither of my setups had/have Sound-stages.
 
James said:
My last house has a suspended wooden floor. My current house has a poured concrete floor. Both carpeted with underlay. My Mana went out of tune regularly in the old house, but has stayed in tune in my current house for over 10 years. Properly tuned Mana on concrete does not sound "harsh, cold and edgy". Neither of my setups had/have Sound-stages.
Click to expand...
You can’t beat a solid floor or wall especially where a turntable is concerned. It’s wishful thinking to imagine a suspended wood floor is better.
 
Thanks for all the suggestions. I haven’t had chance to read this properly yet but the immediate thing I want to say is:
I was suggesting either:
1. Putting screws into floorboards to locate mana spikes (a NO NO according to literature I have from John W).
2. Putting slabs onto of carpet (I like above the suggestion of ceramic tiles).
3. Putting screws into the floorboards positioned to support the corners of the slabs, thus coupling the slabs to the floorboards without the rocking likely to be caused by the carpet.
 
And the reason for pulling everything apart and starting again is not just to spread stuff out onto an additional rack it’s also to introduce the 3 soundstages I have bought into the equation. I’m probably going to use 2 soundstages under the new rack which will be for the Nac-N-272 pre/streamer & Snaxo and one soundstage under the original rack containing amps & power supplies.
Only thing holding this up is the need to get a giant board made up for the soundstage going under the amp rack because it’s a bit bigger than standard. This board which will need to protrude beyond the edges of the soundstage frame & I’m hoping this won’t compromise its stability.
 
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