Cereal Killer
432
have you tried them, in your system, at home yet? have you heard the MH-1's?
Lyngdorf bake off: looking for visitors
- Thread starter Rob Sinden
- Start date
Mr Perceptive
Perceptive Member
Well where do I start, we covered so much in 8 hours and listen to a huge variety of music.
Firstly, Rob’s facilities are superb, A large open area supporting small and large AV and 2 channel systems and a further acoustically designed room. These make any other dem room that I’ve visited come off a poor second and are ideal for demonstrating big home cinema for wealthy clients.
Initially we set up my system in one part of the open area to get a feel for the sound and for Rob to get his first Shahinian experience! Sources were a CD-1 and a Squeezebox, it was a typical Shahinian sound, big sound, wide and tall, good bass but poor imaging (the latter being a trait of Omnidirectional speakers). Various music was played from heavy rock to ethnic drummers. Rob described it as – very musical and not hi-fi, which I shall definitely take as a complement.
Next we moved into Rob’s acoustic room, set up were a Lyngdorf TDAI-2200 (room corrected) with slave SDA-2175 driving MK satellite speakers (one tweeter, dual midrange) and a pair of MK subs, a 2+2 system. This produced a very full sound with superb imaging. Track after track was played, again a very musical system, A slightly brighter sound than the Shahinians, but produced some good well controlled low bass. Not as tolerant of less good quality recordings as my system, and this was shown up on Lights Out from Strangers In The Night by UFO when the guitar solo went very hard/edgy at the top end. At midnight we called it a day, to be resumed the following morning.
The next day came, after a decent nights sleep and an excellent fry-up, we were joined by Steve and Chrisk. Initially we put the Shahinians in the acoustic room in place of the MK satellite speakers, Rob recalibrated the Room Perfect system and off we went, what a great system, the subs integrated really well and produced some excellent low end bass and the very top hard sheen was removed by using the Shahinians and I felt that it produced a very natural sound. Interestingly the Shahinians started to image a bit better, now whether that was a function of the room or RoomPerfect or both I don’t know but it was a great sounding system.
Then we removed the subs and slave amplifier, Rob recalibrated again and we ran just the Shahinians with the TDA-1. Initially this sounded good, but when we played a track with a lot of low bass (My Man from Santana’s All That I Am featuring Mary J Bilge and Big Boi) the sound just fell apart. I suspect that this was caused by the fact the Shahinians are very hard to drive and just at that point in the music required serious power (current)
We then went back to MK Subs and Sats system, played the track again and all was well. The low bass was resolved really well.
A break for lunch, after which I broke my back for the second time by moving my Meridian monoliths into Robs acoustic room and setting up my system in his room, to give me a reference point. All I can say is wow! The room made a huge difference, my system sounded really great, and as before even imaged a bit, played a handful of tracks which Steve really enjoyed. It was shame that Chris missed this as it would have really shown what Shahinians were capable of on their own.
Now whether this system was better than the Shahinians + Subs being driven by Lyngdorf, I couldn’t say, I felt (very personal view) that the Shahinian Subs produced some much lower bass, but whether it made listening to the music more enjoyable is the big question. I’d be very happy with either system.
In the meantime Rob set up the next level up Lyngdorf system where I had originally set up my system. Comprising of a CD-1, TDAI-2200, Millenium Amp, some BW210 subs and a pair of DP-1 speakers, again a 2+2 system. These open baffle speakers were certainly an eye opener, this was definitely a step up from the boxed MKs, the sound was very open, big and wide with great imaging. It sounded much better in that space than my system had done. This system has a much sweeter treble than the MK system and was another system that I could very happily live with.
During the course of listing to these systems e played an amazing amount of music from all sorts of genres, and all the systems produced great music, which is really what it is all about. I could have quite happily listened away for many more hours
My conclusions are:-
1) The 2+2 concept really works and works well.
2) My system works really well in a good room
3) The Lyngdorf system with Room Perfect works very well in non-perfect rooms
4) The DAC section in the TADI-2200 was really good and to my ears made no difference whether we were using the CD-1 or the Squeezebox.
If I was starting from scratch, the Lyngdorf kit would have to be on my radar, and the sub/sat arrangement is probably a lot more wife friendly than some monolithic speakers sat out into the room. Equally if I had a system with small speakers and I wanted a fully range sound, then it should be considered as well.
Starting from where I am (and in love with my Shahinians), I like my system, appreciate it strengths (and know it’s weaknesses).
Finally Rob had a couple of treats in store for us, firstly a top of the range Steinway system (six figure price tag), this produced massive sound but was capable of being amazingly delicate. A piece that Chris brought with a solo double bass was just stunning and created a very believable realism to the music and the instruments.
And last but not least, we were treated to The Attack on Pearl Harbour from the film Pearl Harbour. This was better than any cinema that I’ve been too, the dynamics were amazing and it certainly re-arranged my internal organs. A great system for a dedicated cinema room but probably not one that you would want in your living room for everyday use!
I must thank Rob for his hospitality and spending the time connecting kit, recalibrating, making tea and providing food (and in my case accommodation).
Music Played (on multiple systems included):-
My Man – Santana featuring Mary J Bilge and Big Boi
Since I’ve Been Loving You – Led Zeppelin
Another Brick In The Wall Part1/The Happiest Days Of Our Lives – Pink Floyd Where Do You Think You’re Going – Dire Straits
Burn – Deep Purple)
Soldier Of Fortune – Whitesnake (Starkers in Toyko)
James And The Cold Gun - Kate Bush
Papa Was A Rolling Stone – The Temptations
Nine Million Bicycles – Katie Melua
The Ballard Of Billy Jo Mackay – Shawn Mullins
Lights Out (live) - UFO
School (live) – Supertramp
And much much more!
Firstly, Rob’s facilities are superb, A large open area supporting small and large AV and 2 channel systems and a further acoustically designed room. These make any other dem room that I’ve visited come off a poor second and are ideal for demonstrating big home cinema for wealthy clients.
Initially we set up my system in one part of the open area to get a feel for the sound and for Rob to get his first Shahinian experience! Sources were a CD-1 and a Squeezebox, it was a typical Shahinian sound, big sound, wide and tall, good bass but poor imaging (the latter being a trait of Omnidirectional speakers). Various music was played from heavy rock to ethnic drummers. Rob described it as – very musical and not hi-fi, which I shall definitely take as a complement.
Next we moved into Rob’s acoustic room, set up were a Lyngdorf TDAI-2200 (room corrected) with slave SDA-2175 driving MK satellite speakers (one tweeter, dual midrange) and a pair of MK subs, a 2+2 system. This produced a very full sound with superb imaging. Track after track was played, again a very musical system, A slightly brighter sound than the Shahinians, but produced some good well controlled low bass. Not as tolerant of less good quality recordings as my system, and this was shown up on Lights Out from Strangers In The Night by UFO when the guitar solo went very hard/edgy at the top end. At midnight we called it a day, to be resumed the following morning.
The next day came, after a decent nights sleep and an excellent fry-up, we were joined by Steve and Chrisk. Initially we put the Shahinians in the acoustic room in place of the MK satellite speakers, Rob recalibrated the Room Perfect system and off we went, what a great system, the subs integrated really well and produced some excellent low end bass and the very top hard sheen was removed by using the Shahinians and I felt that it produced a very natural sound. Interestingly the Shahinians started to image a bit better, now whether that was a function of the room or RoomPerfect or both I don’t know but it was a great sounding system.
Then we removed the subs and slave amplifier, Rob recalibrated again and we ran just the Shahinians with the TDA-1. Initially this sounded good, but when we played a track with a lot of low bass (My Man from Santana’s All That I Am featuring Mary J Bilge and Big Boi) the sound just fell apart. I suspect that this was caused by the fact the Shahinians are very hard to drive and just at that point in the music required serious power (current)
We then went back to MK Subs and Sats system, played the track again and all was well. The low bass was resolved really well.
A break for lunch, after which I broke my back for the second time by moving my Meridian monoliths into Robs acoustic room and setting up my system in his room, to give me a reference point. All I can say is wow! The room made a huge difference, my system sounded really great, and as before even imaged a bit, played a handful of tracks which Steve really enjoyed. It was shame that Chris missed this as it would have really shown what Shahinians were capable of on their own.
Now whether this system was better than the Shahinians + Subs being driven by Lyngdorf, I couldn’t say, I felt (very personal view) that the Shahinian Subs produced some much lower bass, but whether it made listening to the music more enjoyable is the big question. I’d be very happy with either system.
In the meantime Rob set up the next level up Lyngdorf system where I had originally set up my system. Comprising of a CD-1, TDAI-2200, Millenium Amp, some BW210 subs and a pair of DP-1 speakers, again a 2+2 system. These open baffle speakers were certainly an eye opener, this was definitely a step up from the boxed MKs, the sound was very open, big and wide with great imaging. It sounded much better in that space than my system had done. This system has a much sweeter treble than the MK system and was another system that I could very happily live with.
During the course of listing to these systems e played an amazing amount of music from all sorts of genres, and all the systems produced great music, which is really what it is all about. I could have quite happily listened away for many more hours
My conclusions are:-
1) The 2+2 concept really works and works well.
2) My system works really well in a good room
3) The Lyngdorf system with Room Perfect works very well in non-perfect rooms
4) The DAC section in the TADI-2200 was really good and to my ears made no difference whether we were using the CD-1 or the Squeezebox.
If I was starting from scratch, the Lyngdorf kit would have to be on my radar, and the sub/sat arrangement is probably a lot more wife friendly than some monolithic speakers sat out into the room. Equally if I had a system with small speakers and I wanted a fully range sound, then it should be considered as well.
Starting from where I am (and in love with my Shahinians), I like my system, appreciate it strengths (and know it’s weaknesses).
Finally Rob had a couple of treats in store for us, firstly a top of the range Steinway system (six figure price tag), this produced massive sound but was capable of being amazingly delicate. A piece that Chris brought with a solo double bass was just stunning and created a very believable realism to the music and the instruments.
And last but not least, we were treated to The Attack on Pearl Harbour from the film Pearl Harbour. This was better than any cinema that I’ve been too, the dynamics were amazing and it certainly re-arranged my internal organs. A great system for a dedicated cinema room but probably not one that you would want in your living room for everyday use!
I must thank Rob for his hospitality and spending the time connecting kit, recalibrating, making tea and providing food (and in my case accommodation).
Music Played (on multiple systems included):-
My Man – Santana featuring Mary J Bilge and Big Boi
Since I’ve Been Loving You – Led Zeppelin
Another Brick In The Wall Part1/The Happiest Days Of Our Lives – Pink Floyd Where Do You Think You’re Going – Dire Straits
Burn – Deep Purple)
Soldier Of Fortune – Whitesnake (Starkers in Toyko)
James And The Cold Gun - Kate Bush
Papa Was A Rolling Stone – The Temptations
Nine Million Bicycles – Katie Melua
The Ballard Of Billy Jo Mackay – Shawn Mullins
Lights Out (live) - UFO
School (live) – Supertramp
And much much more!
Rob Sinden
Registered user
Hi Mr P
Thanks so much for your feature on the bake off. I wanted to give an update but thought it was better for other people to give their views, plus business has gone a bit crazy lately so time has been limited.
Like you, I really enjoyed everything that was played and found all the systems very “listenable.” As you say your Shahinian speakers give a huge soundstage which I love but I don’t thing their imaging would suit all types of music.
The woofers used with the Lyngdorf speakers were the Lyngdorf BW210’s not B&W subs and by the way I think your Squeezebox is a great bit of kit.
Once again I’m really grateful you made the effort to come and listen to the equipment we sell so you can make an informed judgement on its merits. The Lyngdorf kit offers something that traditional hifi doesn’t. It may not be to everyone’s taste but I think it definitely does to be on everyone’s audition list.
All the best.
Rob
Thanks so much for your feature on the bake off. I wanted to give an update but thought it was better for other people to give their views, plus business has gone a bit crazy lately so time has been limited.
Like you, I really enjoyed everything that was played and found all the systems very “listenable.” As you say your Shahinian speakers give a huge soundstage which I love but I don’t thing their imaging would suit all types of music.
The woofers used with the Lyngdorf speakers were the Lyngdorf BW210’s not B&W subs and by the way I think your Squeezebox is a great bit of kit.
Once again I’m really grateful you made the effort to come and listen to the equipment we sell so you can make an informed judgement on its merits. The Lyngdorf kit offers something that traditional hifi doesn’t. It may not be to everyone’s taste but I think it definitely does to be on everyone’s audition list.
All the best.
Rob
vln
Shuns mooks. And MQA.
Mr. Perceptive,
Thank you for your long and detailed post.
I had my 'proper' Lyngdorf experience over the last weekend, as is documented in this thread (starts on page 12), and I subsequently bought the TDAI+2200.
To your conclusions:
I would like to add something to 3), namely '... or with speakers in non-perfect positions'.
Of course this doesn't mean that you can put the speakers in the cupboard, press a button and RoomPerfect will make it sound great again.
However, if one is forced to place the speakers close to the wall, be it due to SWMBO, the layout of the room (my case), or pure and simple space constraints (not everyone has a 50m2 living room), then RoomPerfect helps to control/compensate the increased bass output which usually occurs in such a situation.
This for my gives an interesting perspective, since in my "HiFi career" I always shied away from full range speakers, fearing the problems that might occur with bass in a problematic or small(ish) room, as well as the space requirement of such speakers (one meter away from the rear wall, etc.), but with the Lyngdorf, this seems to be no longer an issue.
Thus, I will be looking around for bigger speakers next year.
Samuel.
Thank you for your long and detailed post.
I had my 'proper' Lyngdorf experience over the last weekend, as is documented in this thread (starts on page 12), and I subsequently bought the TDAI+2200.
To your conclusions:
I would like to add something to 3), namely '... or with speakers in non-perfect positions'.
Of course this doesn't mean that you can put the speakers in the cupboard, press a button and RoomPerfect will make it sound great again.
However, if one is forced to place the speakers close to the wall, be it due to SWMBO, the layout of the room (my case), or pure and simple space constraints (not everyone has a 50m2 living room), then RoomPerfect helps to control/compensate the increased bass output which usually occurs in such a situation.
This for my gives an interesting perspective, since in my "HiFi career" I always shied away from full range speakers, fearing the problems that might occur with bass in a problematic or small(ish) room, as well as the space requirement of such speakers (one meter away from the rear wall, etc.), but with the Lyngdorf, this seems to be no longer an issue.
Thus, I will be looking around for bigger speakers next year.
Samuel.
Mr Perceptive
Perceptive Member
Samuel
Based on my listening I would in your situation give serious consideration to a pair of subs and a slave amplifier. This I believe will give you better bass extension than larger speakers. My speakers -3dB point is around 28Hz, and I certainly heard lower bass when used in a 2+2 arrangement with the MK subs. Also having a second amplifier puts less strain on a single amplifier driving fuller range speakers. With my difficult to drive speakers I felt the TDAI-2200 struggled driving my speakers alone, but when combined with a slave amplifier and a pair of subs it had no problems.
Based on my listening I would in your situation give serious consideration to a pair of subs and a slave amplifier. This I believe will give you better bass extension than larger speakers. My speakers -3dB point is around 28Hz, and I certainly heard lower bass when used in a 2+2 arrangement with the MK subs. Also having a second amplifier puts less strain on a single amplifier driving fuller range speakers. With my difficult to drive speakers I felt the TDAI-2200 struggled driving my speakers alone, but when combined with a slave amplifier and a pair of subs it had no problems.
Rob Sinden
Registered user
The general point that you make about being able to use full range speakers because of the room correction is something I completely agree with. Personally I think a system that can reproduce all the frequencies in a recording is a must but very few people have a system like this because the bass would vary too much in their rooms.
If you are using RoomPerfect I would definitely recommend you try either boundary woofers or full range speakers. What you might find interesting is trying your existing speakers against the rear wall. This will improve the timing of the bass while any peaks created by this location will be removed.
If you are using RoomPerfect I would definitely recommend you try either boundary woofers or full range speakers. What you might find interesting is trying your existing speakers against the rear wall. This will improve the timing of the bass while any peaks created by this location will be removed.
vln
Shuns mooks. And MQA.
Rob,
you will find that this is exactly what I did - place my speakers as close to the wall as possible (which is also what Lyngdorf suggested).
I would like to avoid additional boxes in the form of boundary woofers (or any other types of woofers), they would need space again and from the pictures it seems that the DP speakers need to be some way away from the wall - not good for me.
I also find the Lyngdorf speakers pig-ugly.
Out of curiosity, what kind of correction factors do you get in your setup(s) in your store? I got 9% at a 35cm distance to the wall and 20% close to the wall.
Samuel.
you will find that this is exactly what I did - place my speakers as close to the wall as possible (which is also what Lyngdorf suggested).
I would like to avoid additional boxes in the form of boundary woofers (or any other types of woofers), they would need space again and from the pictures it seems that the DP speakers need to be some way away from the wall - not good for me.
I also find the Lyngdorf speakers pig-ugly.
Out of curiosity, what kind of correction factors do you get in your setup(s) in your store? I got 9% at a 35cm distance to the wall and 20% close to the wall.
Samuel.
Rob Sinden
Registered user
The amount of correction varies tremendously but it's typically from the low 20's to high 70's - generally the more bass the speakers produce, the more correction is being used.
What speakers are you using?
What speakers are you using?
vln
Shuns mooks. And MQA.
Speakers are Harbeth Compact 7s, quite popular on this forum, they are relatively large stand-mounted speakers (despite the name), but only go down to 46Hz.
I have put the speakers as far back as I possibly can, 3cm from the rear wall and will do another calibration tomorrow.
I also had an email exchange with Lyngdorf about cables, burn-in time and power conditioners. Unsurprisingly, they don't think much of it.
Samuel.
I have put the speakers as far back as I possibly can, 3cm from the rear wall and will do another calibration tomorrow.
I also had an email exchange with Lyngdorf about cables, burn-in time and power conditioners. Unsurprisingly, they don't think much of it.
Samuel.
Stuart Mason
.....
Hi Samuel,
Please update us as you re-calibrate and settle in with the new amp. I've had a quick dem in an unfamiliar system - not completely sold yet bet remain interested.
Thanks,
Stuart.
Please update us as you re-calibrate and settle in with the new amp. I've had a quick dem in an unfamiliar system - not completely sold yet bet remain interested.
Thanks,
Stuart.
Rob Sinden
Registered user
I would assume that Harbeths are very revealing and present what is there warts and all. I think you'll find Lyngdorf electronics will give you more of the same.
Please let us know how you get on....
Please let us know how you get on....
Have had an interesting evening finally getting the 2+2 working, thanks to the loan of a 2200 and two BW1s from Rob. Not having an RJ11 cable proved to be a delaying factor but Amazon delivered one today. The full range speakers were Totem Acoustics Mites, on Atacama Nexus 6i stands.
It was a fiddle getting all the requisite wires installed on the back of both amps, as I didn't want to dismantle my rack yet again. With a lot of help from Graham Russell we got it done. Thanks Graham!
The difference, with Room Perfect run and enabled, was not subtle. A much fuller richer sound presentation. Oodles of bass of course.
Am I going to go for it? Probably not at this stage. Mrs K is not too impressed with the two large black shiny boxes against the wall. Our room is a lot smaller than Rob's demo room! I think the compromise of a small pair of floorstanders or high class standmounts driven by a single TDAI2200 will be more than good enough. TBH, that combination already sounded excellent. Adding the +2 simply adds expense and complexity, neither of which are necessary for us right now.
Thanks to Rob and Steve for their generosity in lending me the extra kit. Maybe one day....;-)
It was a fiddle getting all the requisite wires installed on the back of both amps, as I didn't want to dismantle my rack yet again. With a lot of help from Graham Russell we got it done. Thanks Graham!
The difference, with Room Perfect run and enabled, was not subtle. A much fuller richer sound presentation. Oodles of bass of course.
Am I going to go for it? Probably not at this stage. Mrs K is not too impressed with the two large black shiny boxes against the wall. Our room is a lot smaller than Rob's demo room! I think the compromise of a small pair of floorstanders or high class standmounts driven by a single TDAI2200 will be more than good enough. TBH, that combination already sounded excellent. Adding the +2 simply adds expense and complexity, neither of which are necessary for us right now.
Thanks to Rob and Steve for their generosity in lending me the extra kit. Maybe one day....;-)
Follow-up: I have now had my Proac Response D18s in place for 10 days, playing at least 12 hours a day. Last night I ran Room Perfect with them in place and all I can say is - WOW! Excellent sound. Nicely weighted and tuneful bass and a mid-range and teble that are simply exquisite. I have never heard spoken voice sound more life-like and music is just gorgeous. I think I may just have reached hifi nirvana.
vln
Shuns mooks. And MQA.
Gentlemen,
I have reactivated 'my' Lyngdorf thread in the Audio room, we might as well discuss Lyngdorf out in the open, rather than hidden away in the Trade Discussion room.
Rob, I hope you are still allowed to post in the Audio room
long time no read on this forum, hope you are doing well.
Samuel.
I have reactivated 'my' Lyngdorf thread in the Audio room, we might as well discuss Lyngdorf out in the open, rather than hidden away in the Trade Discussion room.
Rob, I hope you are still allowed to post in the Audio room
long time no read on this forum, hope you are doing well.Samuel.