LP12 Sub Chassis - The Options
- Thread starter flatpopely
- Start date
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
ChristianThomas
Registered User
Oh dear, do I really have to do this?
And why are you going on defending an assumption made by you that is manifestly wrong?
First of all stiffness is proportional to the cube of the thickness. I am not going to bother to argue this with you.
If you knew the history of this material, and the volume of government grants that went into its development, you would have no problem in accepting its description as 'aerospace'. Please see Che's reply on the other thread.
No, it is not used on the bog walls of an Airbus. Maybe if they made one for an Arab Sheik!
The shear strength is of obvious well-understood importance. The epoxy bond between these, rather thick, layers and the foam centre is possibly the least important factor - though we do choose to use epoxy rather than polyester resin. The structural foam was chosen precisely for its shear strength. In this application mass is not of critical importance so we were able to choose to go further up the graph between shear and density.
No I do not work at GKN. I work for myself.
Yours
CT
And why are you going on defending an assumption made by you that is manifestly wrong?
First of all stiffness is proportional to the cube of the thickness. I am not going to bother to argue this with you.
If you knew the history of this material, and the volume of government grants that went into its development, you would have no problem in accepting its description as 'aerospace'. Please see Che's reply on the other thread.
No, it is not used on the bog walls of an Airbus. Maybe if they made one for an Arab Sheik!
The shear strength is of obvious well-understood importance. The epoxy bond between these, rather thick, layers and the foam centre is possibly the least important factor - though we do choose to use epoxy rather than polyester resin. The structural foam was chosen precisely for its shear strength. In this application mass is not of critical importance so we were able to choose to go further up the graph between shear and density.
No I do not work at GKN. I work for myself.
Yours
CT
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
CT.
Have you got any reviews of your sub chassis. If not why not lend it to a non trade bod on pfm and let them do one for you? If they could record the before and after results, so much the better.
Andrew.
Have you got any reviews of your sub chassis. If not why not lend it to a non trade bod on pfm and let them do one for you? If they could record the before and after results, so much the better.
Andrew.
John
Rack’em Up!
It would be interesting to get needle drops of all the sub-chassis/arm board combinations where the sub-chassis/arm board is the only variable. You would have to find a capable individual willing to do all the work of setting up and making recordings of all the options. There would have to be some motivation for the person to do all that work, perhaps being able to keep the sub-chassis of their choice.
ChristianThomas
Registered User
Hi John
Is there a history on pfm of needle drops?
I am quite with you on the idea that you can sometimes tell what a system is going to sound like when the needle first hits the groove. Whether it is a thump or a tick or a thud is often indicative of what you are about to hear. But the idea of it being a measure of merit is intriguing.
I honestly don't know which way to go here. I could go with a haughty technical answer - which I would later regret as I uncovered its flaws - or I could bend to an instinct that I have myself felt.
The dropping of a stylus into a groove is no ultimate test of the system's dynamic response but it does to be seem an early starting gauge. About as good as anything you are going to hear rather than measure. But there are endless potential flaws.
If B&K had produced a calibrated mc cartridge into a given load, and having its own cables, with a test record with little bumps in it 20ms apart - and if MLSSA had been invented - then maybe turntable design would have taken a different path.
Of course it would. We would be arguing why an LP12, with far worse measurements, seemed to sound better than a Technics SL10, when the LP12 measured so badly by comparison.
Anyone remember this argument? Well, welcome to the world of fluke versus engineering.
CT
Is there a history on pfm of needle drops?
I am quite with you on the idea that you can sometimes tell what a system is going to sound like when the needle first hits the groove. Whether it is a thump or a tick or a thud is often indicative of what you are about to hear. But the idea of it being a measure of merit is intriguing.
I honestly don't know which way to go here. I could go with a haughty technical answer - which I would later regret as I uncovered its flaws - or I could bend to an instinct that I have myself felt.
The dropping of a stylus into a groove is no ultimate test of the system's dynamic response but it does to be seem an early starting gauge. About as good as anything you are going to hear rather than measure. But there are endless potential flaws.
If B&K had produced a calibrated mc cartridge into a given load, and having its own cables, with a test record with little bumps in it 20ms apart - and if MLSSA had been invented - then maybe turntable design would have taken a different path.
Of course it would. We would be arguing why an LP12, with far worse measurements, seemed to sound better than a Technics SL10, when the LP12 measured so badly by comparison.
Anyone remember this argument? Well, welcome to the world of fluke versus engineering.
CT
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
Well now at least you spotted the mistake, that's a start.
The sheer strength of the join between core and skin is of vital importance- without that all you have is a stack of plastic- not a beam. No point talking about the sheer strength of the foam if there's nothing stuck to it- it would snap like a twiglet.
By needle drop we mean a recording of a record, not the moment the needle hits the groove.
The sheer strength of the join between core and skin is of vital importance- without that all you have is a stack of plastic- not a beam. No point talking about the sheer strength of the foam if there's nothing stuck to it- it would snap like a twiglet.
By needle drop we mean a recording of a record, not the moment the needle hits the groove.
John
Rack’em Up!
Christian,
By needle drop, I meant a snippet of music recorded digitally of the turntable in question. I imagine the recording could start with a drop of the needle on the lead groove.
In the last year or so we have had several threads that contained needle drops, do a search and you will find several.
Regards,
John
By needle drop, I meant a snippet of music recorded digitally of the turntable in question. I imagine the recording could start with a drop of the needle on the lead groove.
In the last year or so we have had several threads that contained needle drops, do a search and you will find several.
Regards,
John
ChristianThomas
Registered User
Thanks John, I appear to have learnt this the hard way. And I have psycho in as one of the audience for my humiliation, to make it more sweet for him.
I fully approve of the scientific method but you are asking an awful lot of third parties. I don't think I have done as much as that with my own parts, In fact I know I haven't.
Best
CT
ChristianThomas
Registered User
The word is "shear". Sheer is a definition, under the Denier scale, of the weave women's tights and stockings.
Would you please now leave me alone, since you clearly have nothing more to say and obviously do not have the grace to say that you might have been wrong at the outset.
CT
ChristianThomas
Registered User
No, Sq, you probably do not have anything more to lose by being wrong since you seem to have lost everything all by yourself.
I have asked you to leave me alone on two separate threads but you will not.
You are so obviously wrong in everything you have said, yet you keep banging on in a way that can only be an embarrassment to you. I can only hope that you are in the company of Jack Daniels and we might see something better in the morning.
It is not my duty to disclose to you the specifications or the approvals on the materials I use - and certainly not in public. But when you publish your off the cuff appraisal that it is a "crock", and continue along that line in many posts, it is most definitely libel and the duty falls on you to substantiate your claim - not least to protect your publisher.
It is not an apology that I need to earn, it is an apology that you must give forthwith. I think I have given you quite enough information to satisfy any reasonable man that what I describe is true.
Please now formally withdraw all statements you made, starting with your delightfully vulgar opening criticism.
Best
CT
I have asked you to leave me alone on two separate threads but you will not.
You are so obviously wrong in everything you have said, yet you keep banging on in a way that can only be an embarrassment to you. I can only hope that you are in the company of Jack Daniels and we might see something better in the morning.
It is not my duty to disclose to you the specifications or the approvals on the materials I use - and certainly not in public. But when you publish your off the cuff appraisal that it is a "crock", and continue along that line in many posts, it is most definitely libel and the duty falls on you to substantiate your claim - not least to protect your publisher.
It is not an apology that I need to earn, it is an apology that you must give forthwith. I think I have given you quite enough information to satisfy any reasonable man that what I describe is true.
Please now formally withdraw all statements you made, starting with your delightfully vulgar opening criticism.
Best
CT
ChristianThomas
Registered User
Can you start a new thread that will actually be about the design of subchassis. My arrival, and some berk who wouldn't let go, hijacked the whole theme that you planned, and not a word was said about anything to do with turntables.
I am not completely thrilled by the idea of me throwing 30 years of thoughts and work in front of the untutored - or even in front of the brainwashed Linnies who seem to have an entirely different understanding of physics from mine. The usual one starts with Newton, theirs (having not bothered in school) starts with Ivor, and they tack the few bits they remember from classes around it.
But I will do it. Not least to get the slaves to break free from the hegemony that Linn has exercised for three decades and get to some free thinking.
CT
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
CT.
This is a discussion thread. Why not explain the thinking behind your design. If you look at post #1 I have described the reasoning behind the the RubiKon. Obviously there are secrets to its design that we will not disclose but our 'engineering' reasons are there for all to see. You might find the brainwashed Linnies are actually quite receptive on here. The RubiKon and SOLE both have attracted a lot of positive attention on pfm but that's by convincing the forum members of the merits and allowing third party reviewers to listen to one and post their thoughts.
I must admit you have been pursued from the first post though, how you deal with it is how you will be viewed by many. Perhaps some PMs might sort?
Andrew.
This is a discussion thread. Why not explain the thinking behind your design. If you look at post #1 I have described the reasoning behind the the RubiKon. Obviously there are secrets to its design that we will not disclose but our 'engineering' reasons are there for all to see. You might find the brainwashed Linnies are actually quite receptive on here. The RubiKon and SOLE both have attracted a lot of positive attention on pfm but that's by convincing the forum members of the merits and allowing third party reviewers to listen to one and post their thoughts.
I must admit you have been pursued from the first post though, how you deal with it is how you will be viewed by many. Perhaps some PMs might sort?
Andrew.
sq225917
Bit of this, bit of that
CT, just show the approval or admit the description is a lie, it really is that simple. You can try to wrap it up however you want to target me, but the fact remians you claim aerospace approval for the material but can't show it.
Now call me old fashioned but I don't think that would wash at an Airbus Sales meeting. " so you have the 'Type-certification and the Airworthiness certificate for these planes?"
"oh yeh sure, but we can't show them to you..."
Prove me wrong, and show all your potential customers what a stand up guy you are and what a tit I am, or don't...
The ball is in your court, I'm saying nothing more on the matter.
Now call me old fashioned but I don't think that would wash at an Airbus Sales meeting. " so you have the 'Type-certification and the Airworthiness certificate for these planes?"
"oh yeh sure, but we can't show them to you..."
Prove me wrong, and show all your potential customers what a stand up guy you are and what a tit I am, or don't...
The ball is in your court, I'm saying nothing more on the matter.
flatpopely
Prog Rock/Moderator
Si.
You're coming off as a having a problem with CT. I started this thread so that people could discuss the different options availble, not hunt down someone and kick their head in!
I'd rather hear about why CT chose the materials he did, the thinking behind it and how it sounds.
Andrew.
You're coming off as a having a problem with CT. I started this thread so that people could discuss the different options availble, not hunt down someone and kick their head in!
I'd rather hear about why CT chose the materials he did, the thinking behind it and how it sounds.
Andrew.
Christian,
once you spend a little more time on this forum, you get to know the main protagonists. Simon (sq whatever) thrives on a bit of controversy. If he can't find it, he'll create it himself. There's no obligation for a member of this forum to talk to any other member, so feel free to ignore him if you don't want to answer him.
You are also free to go into as much or as little detail about your product, qualifications, personal life or whatever as you want to. Please don't feel harrassed by questions, that's just how a forum works. Whether or not you answer is entirely your prerogative.
once you spend a little more time on this forum, you get to know the main protagonists. Simon (sq whatever) thrives on a bit of controversy. If he can't find it, he'll create it himself. There's no obligation for a member of this forum to talk to any other member, so feel free to ignore him if you don't want to answer him.
You are also free to go into as much or as little detail about your product, qualifications, personal life or whatever as you want to. Please don't feel harrassed by questions, that's just how a forum works. Whether or not you answer is entirely your prerogative.
ChristianThomas
Registered User
Thank you, Markus. He has now said he will say no more.