Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
Yes, there's a kind of entitlement that extends beyond the actual ruling class, and into those who keep voting them into power. A feeling that these 'values' define the nation.
Lib Dems win in Shropshire
- Thread starter Heckyman
- Start date
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
I see democracy quietly doing its thing, however imperfect our version of it is. I'm inclined to agree with Jez on this one though (!), I suspect this would return to blue in the event of a GE. The constituency voted nearly 60% for Brexit, which would render a libdem government unacceptable, and the turnout at the byelection was low at 47%, suggesting a lot of tory voters staying at home.
Tintinabulum
pfm Member
I'm wondering who should chose the PM, the electorate or the BBC and their urban metropolitan thinker/woke buddies/social media mates.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Do I take it from this that your much touted version of equity doesn't preclude cheap (hard) labour, and an agricultural subsidy regime that not only favours rich landowners, but is also one of the most environmentally destructive forces on the planet?
That's just tribalism though, isn't it?
narabdela
who?
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
DFTT
Tony L
Administrator
It was a joke, I was taking the pee out of Sean’s post above!
I wasn’t making that point either way, just pointing out why a lot of farmers may not be happy with a Tory government who have slammed doors in their face and made their businesses far less profitable by removing both grants and cheap labour.
PS FWIW I have little time for much of the farming community and view many of them as largely parasitic Tory-voting inherited wealth rather than legitimate and viable businesses. I certainly have no idea why the rest of us are expected to subsidise them. I’m also a vegetarian and highly skeptical of meat farming both from a moral and environmental perspective.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Sorry, not sure what you mean. Can you say a little more?
Seanm
pfm Member
Wha, me? But I was pleased to see Labour’s vote decline as well! The problem with these things is that not everyone can get the kicking they deserve.
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Sure, but you are also fanatically pro-EU, and the CAP is not just an EU policy, but the biggest and most expensive one of the lot. As members of the EU, we (the taxpayers) paid not only the subsidies that went to your hated recipients of inherited wealth, but also for the resultingly more expensive food in the supermarkets.
Don't get me wrong, there's a dilemma for all of us in this. On one hand, I don't believe we pay sufficient for our food (6% of income, against more than 30% 60 years ago) to keep many farmers out of virtual penury, and some of their workers both in production and supply chain not far off of slave labourers. On the other hand, affordable and nourishing food must be available to those even on the lowest incomes. I don't know how that circle can be squared, but the CAP is definitely not the, or even an, answer.
Incidentally, even beans and cabbages require farmers (and a disproportionate number of cheap labourers) to produce them.
Tony L
Administrator
FWIW I don’t think the Labour vote declined, more that many of the Labour voters in that area were intelligent enough to vote tactically to get the job done. This being way brighter than their party who still stood someone in the seat. Given how broken the electoral system the only logical way to real reform is election pacts and a shared PR clause. I’m pretty sure that if Labour, LDs, Greens and PC all worked together we could change to a proper fair and representative system and never again have to suffer Tory rule. Literally never again. They have never once had a mandate to govern, there are always more progressives against them than right-wingers for them, so everyone needs to work together and hose them out of power forever.
Sue Pertwee-Tyr
Accuphase all the way down
It is often said that PR tends to produce coalition government. In which case, given that we don't (yet...) have PR, it would seem not unreasonable for the opposition parties that would go into such a coalition to draw up some sort of pre-election guidelines, about who will contest what seats the hardest, campaigning on joint issues where there is common ground,and so-on. Thereby increasing the chances of said coalition actually coming about.
I mean that every political tribe likes to think that it is "the people" . By way of illustration, take your post above and put "trades union ists" in place of "Tories" and see how much is not true.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Of course, we the taxpayers did not pay for any subsidies, the idea that government spending comes from we that taxpayer is a (mostly) Tory myth.
However, I agree that the whole question of food production, processing and distribution needs looking at with a fresh set of eyes.
ks.234
Half way to Infinity
But trade unionism is explicitly a sectional interest movement with the purpose of promoting the interests of their group within a wider social structure.
Surely, the wider social structure should not be sectional, should not be tribal.
I suppose it could be argued that Socialism or Green Politics are tribal, but the central ethos of both is wide and inclusive, whereas the central ethos and practice of Toryism is to exclude and establish a set of borders around a narrow sense of identity
eternumviti
Insufficient privileges to reply.
Unless I've misunderstood, this seems to assume two things. The first is that the tories are already running the economy according to the principles of MMT, whilst pretending to be old fashioned Keynsian monetarists, the better to keep themselves at the top of the tree, and the rest of us scrabbling around in the undergrowth. The other is that only the tories, and the current government of this country, are doing so, as opposed to every other sovereign country in the world. I think that's what you might be saying?
I know you now quote it as irrefutable fact, (despite evidently having had your own doubts along the way) but as far as I understand it, MMT remains what it says on the tin, and hasn't been tested in the real world economy?
I said "every political tribe" and used TU to illustrate. So the point stands.
I don't think that Tories seek to exclusive either. Or the rest of your post. Remember "one nation Tory" ?
Tony L
Administrator
I don’t think Tories even pretend to be Keynsian! Theirs is the rhetoric of “household budgets” as a smokescreen to conceal their asset-stripping, outsourcing and blatant theft of state assets and tax revenue. The modern Conservative Party are a criminal oligarchy. I guess the party always has been given it was built on so much violent conquest, oppression, human trafficking and slavery. It represents nothing more than elite rule.
Barrymagrec
pfm Member
If Owen Paterson had just accepted his slap on the wrist for crookery Boris would have been saved all this trouble..........