paulfromcamden
Baffled
OK. I'll carry on voting for the party I consider the least worst option.
Completely agree with you that real change comes from outside Parliament - much as politicians would like us to think we lack any form of agency.
Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII
- Thread starter Seeker_UK
- Start date
Completely agree with you that real change comes from outside Parliament - much as politicians would like us to think we lack any form of agency.
The Green agenda is slowing because the parties understand that voters don't want significant change at this time. That is the reality. Those who promote Green change and who bring the majority of voters along with them in a credible manner will win out. There is still time. Fringe groups like JSO are doing more harm than good at the moment.
Here's an issues tracker:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/trackers/the-most-important-issues-facing-the-country
Here's an issues tracker:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/society/trackers/the-most-important-issues-facing-the-country
paulfromcamden
Baffled
The reality is we don't have a choice. We'll have significant change as we transition to a carbon free society or significant change as large parts of the planet become uninhabitable.
mandryka
pfm Member
I think it'll take some disaster in a first world city for major change to happen.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Yep. And will be too late by then. That's why we're probably ****ed.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Look at Dubai- an extremely wealthy city. There’s also been major flooding in France, Italy and Japan. Huge wildfires in Greece, California and Canada. Parts of southern Spain are currently in severe, prolonged drought and are likely to become practically uninhabitable in a decade or so. In the U.K. farmers are complaining that this might be the first year since the war without a harvest. The logic of the profits-at-all-costs is baked into the system. It is unable to reform.
As the evidence of climate breakdown becomes overwhelming, outright denial is becoming banished to the lunatic Trumpian fringe. The new mantra is that the climate is certainly changing, but it has always done and fossil fuels are not responsible. Therefore we can’t prevent it but we must adapt. These fools genuinely believe that their vast wealth will fund technological solutions that enable a super-elite to escape widespread devastation and famine, while the rest of us burn, stave and drown.
laughingboy
pfm Member
The Social Market Foundation have just published a report called 'Labour Economics: Thinking through Labour’s economic agenda'. In their words:
The consistent theme seems to be that Labour's plans, often constrained by things Starmer has ruled out, are not radical enough. Take this, for example, on planning reforms:
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
I agree. That is why Greens also need to 'call out' the real drivers of the situation whom you outline. However this in itself means getting more votes in order to lend more impact to what they say.
Bottom line is a choice between "No hope at all" or voting green, demanding real green policies, and exposing the ultra-wealthy and their bogus economics. Failing or giving up is being willing to die without complaint.
If your local green party isn't clear on this, join them and make your point get another vote within them.
If people gather in co-ops, etc, they can also do things like set up small local green energy projects, etc. i.e. direct action wrt the problems rather than via a ballot-box. Or simply choose to change what you do - e.g. get solar panels and a house battery if you can.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
I do not agree. You have other choices - vote green.
AND you can do other things as exampled by what you suggested. You should do BOTH if you can.
BTW having someone come to see us tomorrow from a local 'eco hub' about energy. Be interesting to see what they say...
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
Well, we havein the UK seen more floods, etc, in recent years and as a result more and more people are getting a personal impact. Similarly, we see the big fires in places like Canada and Greece.
gavreid
Pretty Words...
Labour are ahead in the polls, but have they won hearts and minds? These charts suggest not
"The proportion of those polled who said Labour was fit to govern was 31% in April 2024, compared with 41% in September 2014. Only 24% of people now say that Labour has a good team of leaders compared with 31% then, while 39% of people say that Labour understands the problems facing Great Britain, compared with 52% then.These numbers show that the public has not changed its mind significantly on Labour. In fact, on all four of the measures analysed by the Guardian, perceptions are more negative than in 2014."
Starmer is a liability in waiting
"Starmer’s latest net satisfaction rating was -31 points in April. This is significantly lower than Cameron’s rating at the same point in his tenure as opposition leader, when his rating was +8."
Labour are ahead in the polls, but have they won hearts and minds? These charts suggest not
There are signs the party’s polling lead is a bit soft. But with the Tories trailing in leadership and economy, experts are not sure it will matter
Seanm
pfm Member
Satisfaction with Labour lower than under Miliband, they say. What they tactfully refrain from saying is that it’s lower than *at any point* under *Corbyn’s* leadership, despite the media giving Starmer a free ride.Labour are ahead in the polls, but have they won hearts and minds? These charts suggest not
"The proportion of those polled who said Labour was fit to govern was 31% in April 2024, compared with 41% in September 2014. Only 24% of people now say that Labour has a good team of leaders compared with 31% then, while 39% of people say that Labour understands the problems facing Great Britain, compared with 52% then.
These numbers show that the public has not changed its mind significantly on Labour. In fact, on all four of the measures analysed by the Guardian, perceptions are more negative than in 2014."
Starmer is a liability in waiting
"Starmer’s latest net satisfaction rating was -31 points in April. This is significantly lower than Cameron’s rating at the same point in his tenure as opposition leader, when his rating was +8."
Labour are ahead in the polls, but have they won hearts and minds? These charts suggest not
There are signs the party’s polling lead is a bit soft. But with the Tories trailing in leadership and economy, experts are not sure it will matterwww.theguardian.com
Tempting to say that Labour’s lead is 100% down to the Tories, but while that’s true in a way, it does overlook Starmer’s achievement, which it to make Labour safe for Murdoch, the Barclays, the BBC, to say nothing of the Guardian, the New Statesman and the Parliamentary Labour Party itself. Without Starmer they wouldn’t have withdrawn their support from the Tories, the Partygate dossier would still be in a file somewhere, and we’d be enjoying round the clock celebrations of Prime Minister Johnson’s radical levelling up policy and Brexit triumph.
Credit where it’s due, then. If the whole point of politics is to lie and cheat your way into the favour of Britain’s kingmakers, for the benefit of yourself and your disgusting friends, then you’d have to say Starmer’s played a blinder.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Bottom line Jim is whether you have faith that elected Green MP’s and councillors are capable of effecting the sort of transformation required, by confronting and overcoming the vested interests that will resist and frustrate any change and assault on their interests; frequently to the point of violent and brutal resistance.
I‘ve provided historical examples of the limitations of Green politics where Greens have been elected to national governments. These demonstrate that Greens do not exert a leftward pull, but the contrary; they are forced by the compromises they inevitably make to tack rightwards. And I’ve provided historical examples where the ruling interests were under real threat, and how they have responded. I’ve no reason to believe that the experience of a U.K. Green administration would be any different.
It’s not a case of Green parties being less than perfect, nor is it a case of giving up and being willing to die without complaint. It’s a realisation of where real economic and political power lies (and it isn’t Parliament). And it’s a case of realising what agency is truly capable of confronting and overcoming that power. And that is the organised working class, trade union movement. A comparatively small union like the RMT can bring the entire country to a halt. A small group of dockworkers in Belgium or India or Barcelona can prevent and delay weapons being delivered to Israel to slaughter Palestinians. We need that sort of action on a much bigger basis, demanding an end to fossil fuel extraction and a massive investment in renewable technology.
I don’t decry your efforts and beliefs, but I guess we’re not going to agree with the method and agency of achieving the change we both want to see.
palindrome
Thru a hedge, backwards and forwards.
There's no 'if' about this Sean; politics = exerting control over plebdom by any and all means; always been top priority of the establishment. Since the 'Cummings Effect' we're witnessing scumbag politicians no longer bothering to dress up their poisonous bigotry and contempt for those they're supposed to represent; the non-nationals that need their help to survive.
Voting for any of these despicable bastards is to sign up for the malignancy and malfeasance the rotting corps/corpse British Empire represents. That too many of them support genocide and deliberate mass-starvation makes me sick to the stomach.
Can't find the words to describe how I actually feel. Not sure I want to.
John
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ks.234
Half way to Infinity
Labour are not a least worst option. Labour will increase privatisation esp in the NHS.
Least worst, as far as the NHS is concerned, are the Tories.
A vote for Labour is a vote for even more privatiastion.
Finnegan
I like a bit of a cavort
Yeah I didn’t say they were. We have to judge on a constituency by constituency basis. It might be Green, SNP, Plaid, or a decent socialist independent. However, in a straight choice between Labour or Tories, I would most likely vote Labour rather than abstain, especially if it was a decent Labour candidate like Clive Lewis or Zarah Sultana. I would draw the line though at any of the shadow cabinet.
Jim Audiomisc
pfm Member
I'm pretty sure none of the other UK parties will face up to it in time. For most in the UK that means that the Greens are the only alternative who are more likely to deal with the reality. *Possible* exception might be the SNP in Scotland. But as it stands that looks a weak hope.
I appreciate the fact that we don't really have *any* party we can be confident will face up to the reality. So the Greens are in essence our last, best, hope. if necessary *join* them to push for them to not weaken!
Net zero has become unhelpful slogan...
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...gan-says-outgoing-head-of-uk-climate-watchdog
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...gan-says-outgoing-head-of-uk-climate-watchdog
paulfromcamden
Baffled
Are there any examples of British trade unions taking industrial action in response to the climate crisis?
Not being snarky just wasn't aware it was even seriously on their agenda.
paulfromcamden
Baffled
...because of the response from right-wing pricks.
“It’s the culture warriors who have really taken against it,” said Stark. “A small group of politicians or political voices has moved in to say that net zero is something that you can’t afford, net zero is something that you should be afraid of … But we’ve still got to reduce emissions. In the end, that’s all that matters.”