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Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

That's doesn't begin to explain why things are much the same across Europe, the US, Canada and Australasia despite a multitude of different electoral systems...

I’d certainly not class the USA as a true democracy. It is a highly gerrymandered two-party system where the political right can win with several million fewer votes due to racist vote-rigging that dates back to the days of slavery. It is also an elite system only open to millionaires/billionaires.

PR is democracy. Just a fair tool. It can’t guard against people making poor decisions. I personally can’t respect any system that makes poor decisions without that democracy. Systems such as ours and that in the USA which consistently return governments to absolute power without majority and therefore mandate. Once gerrymandering exists it is conceptually little different to Putin’s Russia or Iran. An election can only be viewed as fair if it fully represents the electorate’s wishes.
 
It’s official. Satire is dead

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Nurse Ratched lives.
 
This looks to me like exactly the same type of problem which Marx saw well over a century ago when he said that it is inevitable that those who gain from the economy will fight to retain the system. If I remember right, this is what led him to advocate revolution rather than evolution.

You've helped me understand the importance of the media as a weapon.

People go in about GB News not making a profit because of lack of advertising, channels like GB News are not there to make a profit they are an advertisement for a product.
 
People go in about GB News not making a profit because of lack of advertising, channels like GB News are not there to make a profit they are an advertisement for a product.

I’d go further than the obvious propaganda aspect and view it as a money-laundering channel thar gets hundreds of £thousands of dodgy offshore oligarch money into the pockets of corrupt Tory MPs and the Conservative Party as an entity.
 
The difference was that workers had some economic and political power, not, IMO, that either the system or the people running it were good and moral. They plainly weren’t, did some absolutely atrocious stuff.
We clearly need to regain some economic and political power then. We can only really do that by withholding from them the things they want from us. So what do they want from us that we have the power to withhold?

This is the underlying thought behind my belief that civil disobedience is probably the only non violent way to swing the pendulum. Protest is less and less effective, so spanners in the works would seem to be the best option. Not actual sabotage or anything like that, but a withdrawal of goodwill, support or anything that helps them that we don’t actually have to give.
 
We clearly need to regain some economic and political power then. We can only really do that by withholding from them the things they want from us. So what do they want from us that we have the power to withhold?

Labour power. I think anything else is too wishy washy to be effective - vote strikes etc. But it's just not possible until you win people's commitment - and that's not possible until you can influence media and education. And that's not possible. Hence the argument for what you don't want, or shut up and get on with life without thinking about it.

Note I say media and education - the school system in England is designed to produce an amenable labour force, it does it very effectively, teachers are complicit.
 
Labour power. I think anything else is too wishy washy to be effective - vote strikes etc. But it's just not possible until you win people's commitment - and that's not possible until you can influence media and education. And that's not possible. Hence the argument for what you don't want, or shut up and get on with life without thinking about it.

Note I say media and education - the school system in England is designed to produce an amenable labour force, it does it very effectively, teachers are complicit.
Media, yes. Education, no. We saw on Kuenessburg today the extent to which commentators go out of their way to promote a government line that says “we would love to give public services some sweeties out of the tin, but they’ve all gone on Covid and Ukraine…(but not Brexit, oh no, no, no)” while the truth is that government owns the entire sweetie factory and the real reason why there isn’t any for public services is entirely due to a political choice to not hand them out.

That LK is complicit in promoting this household nonsense could be down to ignorance or her own right wing leanings, but that ignorance and political leaning is widespread and represents the commonly accepted view. To put responsibility for challenging what is widely accepted onto teachers is unfair and any teacher doing so would soon be brought up for being ‘political’.
 
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Yes, agree, about the morality of people running a system, but I think Keynes was a moral thinker who was the inspiration for a moral economic system that was substantially different to what went before. One aspect of that system was based on quality full employment which strengthened the economic and therefore the political power of workers for the (admittedly amoral purpose) of raising aggregate demand and a greater good. Keynes was opposed by Friedman who inspired a system based on deliberately diminishing workers power (and their benefits) and handing power back to Business elites in which ‘good’ was measured primarily only in terms of what promotes profits.

I believe we have had two economic ideologies that are in opposition. The first is the Free Market ideology based on the “invisible hand” which meant non intervention by government, that really was the only show in town until Keynes when decent full employment achieved by government intervention gained ascendency and largely worked before it was overthrow by a throw back to Free Market thinking with added fundamentalism.

I believe ideas are important.

Our problem today is that Labour and Tory coalesce around the same set of ideas
Ideas are important, sure, but in the end it wasn’t ideas that overthrew social democracy, and it isn’t just ideas around Tories and Labour are coalescing but shared interests, agendas, institutions, networks.
 
We clearly need to regain some economic and political power then. We can only really do that by withholding from them the things they want from us. So what do they want from us that we have the power to withhold?

This is the underlying thought behind my belief that civil disobedience is probably the only non violent way to swing the pendulum. Protest is less and less effective, so spanners in the works would seem to be the best option. Not actual sabotage or anything like that, but a withdrawal of goodwill, support or anything that helps them that we don’t actually have to give.
Agree with Mandryka on Labour but all this as well, sure. I’m also interested to see, post-Rochdale, if anything can come from an organised national wrecking campaign, where an organisation like Momentum puts its resources behind any candidate that can beat the local Tory and Labour candidates. There’s so little genuine support for the main parties it’s not impossible to imagine Rochdale results happening elsewhere. At least enough to put the shits up MPs.
 
What happened last week in Rochdale speaks volumes; as soon as the political establishment is democratically challenged the tiny lectern is pushed out of No.10 and a far-right authoritarian clampdown is announced on behalf of both main parties. This is where we are. This is what needs removal. This two-party authoritarianism and erosion of our fundamental human rights and civil liberties needs to be challenged at every possible level.
 
Ideas are important, sure, but in the end it wasn’t ideas that overthrew social democracy, and it isn’t just ideas around Tories and Labour are coalescing but shared interests, agendas, institutions, networks.
Agree, but the word “just” in there is important. I did not mean that it was, for example, ideas alone that overthrew democracy in the 70’s (I’m not a Hegalian!), but that the ideas of people like Friedman found common purpose with vested interests like Ford and GM in the US who heavily funded Friedman’s Chicago School, it then found a home in the Whitehouse of Nixon who was happy to overthrow democracy in Chile to clear the way for Friedman’s Chicago Boys to carry out their economic experiment as well as an acquiescent Fed.

In this country Monetarism first found favour in Callaghan’s government and when it failed under Thatcher a compliant Treasury bent over backwards to re jig it to achieve the same ends by lowering wages instead of creating massive unemployment.

So yes, I absolutely agree that the Tories, Labour, vested interests, institutions and agendas have coalesced to present us with what we have today, but the common purpose around which they have coalesced is the idea that government spending is bad for the economy, just as those same actors coalesced around the idea that spending was good for the economy when it was politically expedient after the War.

My own view is that the coalescing around so called Keynesianism was thought necessary because of social unrest and the fear of revolution which was very real in the imagination after revolutions in Russia and Germany. Whereas after Thatcher’s decisive victory over the Miners, such concerns were overcome and the natural instincts of the ruling elites who are opposed to the ideas and objectives of social democracy, found first an opposing idea in neoliberalism and common ground with big business, institutional compliance and acceptance from both political parties.

Democracy itself is an idea first and foremost, but only found expression in this country at the beginning of the 20th century because that coalition of interests thought it expedient. The ideas, objectives and achievements of social democracy are being undone by an alternative idea about government spending has been successfully promoted by a range of different actors for over half a century and spending on public services is no longer expedient.

This has found expression recently when the very principles of parliamentary democracy have been overturned and voters described as extremeists.
 
Agree with Mandryka on Labour but all this as well, sure. I’m also interested to see, post-Rochdale, if anything can come from an organised national wrecking campaign, where an organisation like Momentum puts its resources behind any candidate that can beat the local Tory and Labour candidates. There’s so little genuine support for the main parties it’s not impossible to imagine Rochdale results happening elsewhere. At least enough to put the shits up MPs.

Being an Ashfield native I'm fairly certain that neither Labour nor Tory will win here come election time, wrecking campaign or not. The big test here will be if Anderson joins reform.
 
I can’t remember who said it, just a random post that flew by as I was doom-scrolling Twitter late Thurs night; “I don’t like George Galloway. I hope someone shits in his stupid hat.”. I’ve no idea quite why, but it had me chuckling for ages. Just summed-up the night somehow.
 


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