Labour Leader: Keir Starmer VII

[ks.234]

And for the conflation she should be on the hook - I said that.

But to say that she is unhinged is a distortion of the truth and is exactly the way that algorithms on youtube, twitter etc drag discourse and create the poisonous climate we all suffer under nowadays.

The same goes for the partial misrepresentation of what she says in the video - though I accept that this may well not be a misrepresentation of what she deliberately says more widely.

Did I say she is unhinged? Far from it. She is highly intelligent and deliberately using language carefully calculated to conflate protests against genocide with antisemitism in order to pressurise the police to take action against protesters, but with a get out clause incase there’s any comeback.

Not unhinged, just loathsome.

 

[gavreid]

A biography for a politician who's not done anything. We already know the financial stuff and the plotting. I bet that's a good read...

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Ok the Tom Allen ditt may have been a diversion but my asking how you rated the Liberal party was genuine. The reason I brought the LDs up is quite a few on here, including yourself maybe amongst your pages of repetitive drivel, have argued that the only reason Labour have held a 20 point lead in the polls for two years now is the fact that they are not the Tories. Starmer is neither social nor democratic, why haven’t we seen a surge in support for the LDs as the natural refuge for disaffected centrists.

One could also make the same argument for the Green Party but they too are languishing in the polls a bit. Just sayin.

Two points:

1) The LDs are simply another example of those being infected by "the usual economic and social assumptions". Do they oppose the neoliberal nonsense or show any sign of tackling the wealth extractions by the already wealthy?

2) We don't need 'centerists'. We need poliicians who can see the reality and the *actual* causes of our economic and social decline. And also realise that whistling won't make Climate Change go away. Being 'nice' isn't enough.

erm... OK, 3 points ;->

3) And we need support for parties that realise that we HAVE to change to greener ways for decent approaches to civilisation to survive. Have to do this NOW as it is getting too late. Kicking it into the future simply makes it less likely we will succeed in avoiding dreadful results.

In the end, no-one (apart from the Greens) is willing to speak the truth. The others are terrfied of being monstered by the press and having financial support withdrawn from them and given to the 'other side'. Reality, and we, duly suffer as a result. The press largely distort or suppress reporting what the Greens do/argue. And many people really want CC NOT to be true as it is too awful to contemplate.

 

[TheDecameron]

The Tories can’t win the election on the issues most important to the electorate- the cost of living crisis and the NHS. Sir Keir’s problem is that the Tories will drag him onto their favoured battle ground- the Muslim problem. They are going hell for leather on it now, in the hope enough voters will believe that part of society are working to destroy “thebritishwayoflife” and that the economy and NHS can be fixed later.

 

[Seanm]

The Tories can’t win the election on the issues most important to the electorate- the cost of living crisis and the NHS. Sir Keir’s problem is that the Tories will drag him onto their favoured battle ground- the Muslim problem. They are going hell for leather on it now, in the hope enough voters will believe that part of society are working to destroy “thebritishwayoflife” and that the economy and NHS can be fixed later.

Labour will be perfectly happy to duke it out over who’s the most Islamophobic. Starmer’s smearing of protesters to cover up his own malfeasance, Reeves video - it comes very naturally to them, and they do it with more finesse than the Tories because their brand of Islamophobia is more in tune with that of media professionals. They’ll win on this ground.

 

[Enfield boy]

I agree. As an example it is great to see Liverpool resisting Starmerism and in many areas fielding independent candidates.

https://twitter.com/LIndependents

I think Liverpool is a special case. The Toxteth riots with the chair of Merseyside police criticising their treatment of black citizens. I can't imagine that happening today.
How the press, notably the Sun (it is obscene that so called "news" outlets still platform Kelvin McKenzie the evil, self-serving bastard) the police and government treated the Hillsborough victims and the wider community.
It's a pity that the country at large can't see that the same forces feel the same way about 99.9% of us.

 

[Tony L]

I think Liverpool is a special case. The Toxteth riots with the chair of Merseyside police criticising their treatment of black citizens. I can't imagine that happening today.
How the press, notably the Sun (it is obscene that so called "news" outlets still platform Kelvin McKenzie the evil, self-serving bastard) the police and government treated the Hillsborough victims and the wider community.
It's a pity that the country at large can't see that the same forces feel the same way about 99.9% of us.

Thatcher’s mass-unemployment of the ‘80s too. Those of us who lived through it will never forget. I’m sure the austerity generation of this century feel much the same. Liverpool understands what Tories are better than most places. Another really good thing about Liverpool is the Murdoch press is seen as exactly what it is. Even those who aren’t politically astute grasp it is full of lies.

 

[Dave H.]

Did I say she is unhinged? Far from it. She is highly intelligent and deliberately using language carefully calculated to conflate protests against genocide with antisemitism in order to pressurise the police to take action against protesters, but with a get out clause incase there’s any comeback.

Not unhinged, just loathsome.

Well, if you really want to be finger jabby and 'did I say?' about it, I didn't claim that you had said she is unhinged.

I cautioned against using the opponent's cesspit tactics too freely. Talking about using the word unhinged when doing so seemed entirely fair because it is literally the first word of the tweet you posted.

 

[Enfield boy]

Agreed, but the reaction to the Murdoch press came about as a result of thankfully unique circumstances. Some elsewhere saw it for what it was, sadly, not enough as our politics has continued to the right and into the gutter.

 

[Tony L]

Agreed, but the reaction to the Murdoch press came about as a result of thankfully unique circumstances. Some elsewhere saw it for what it was, sadly, not enough as our politics has continued to the right and into the gutter.

Absolutely. The obvious media lies around Toxteth, Hillsborough etc and the Tory cover-up of terrible police decisions that cost so many lives made the reality in which we live clear even to those with little interest in politics.

The thing I don’t understand is why similar didn’t happen in working class mining communities and other areas of visceral mass-unemployment and poverty. Why did so much of the ‘red wall’ turn to racism, xenophobia and fascism? Even as someone with zero interest in football I understand the significance and reach of Hillsborough, I know people who were there (at least one is here on pfm), but it is more than that. Liverpool didn’t put up with fascists long before that awful event. The NF were always met with exactly the contempt they deserved.

 

[gavreid]

Absolutely. The obvious media lies around Toxteth, Hillsborough etc and the Tory cover-up of terrible police decisions that cost so many lives made the reality in which we live clear even to those with little interest in politics.

The thing I don’t understand is why similar didn’t happen in working class mining communities and other areas of visceral mass-unemployment and poverty. Why did so much of the ‘red wall’ turn to racism, xenophobia and fascism? Even as someone with zero interest in football I understand the significance and reach of Hillsborough, I know people who were there (at least one is here on pfm), but it is more than that. Liverpool didn’t put up with fascists long before that awful event. The NF were always met with exactly the contempt they deserved.

Certainly happened in parts of London with Broadwater Farm and the racism of the police etc

 

[ks.234]

Well, if you really want to be finger jabby and 'did I say?' about it, I didn't claim that you had said she is unhinged.

I cautioned against using the opponent's cesspit tactics too freely. Talking about using the word unhinged when doing so seemed entirely fair because it is literally the first word of the tweet you posted.

Not sure what you mean. What is right wing or cesspit about reporting Reeves words. She is conflating antisemitism with anti Israel protests and urging police action. If “unhinged” is inappropriate, how would you describe her intentions.

 

[Jim Audiomisc]

Why did so much of the ‘red wall’ turn to racism, xenophobia and fascism?

Because the media and politicians simply obscure reality with a cover story that seems plausible. SOP for "devide and rule" which has worked for Tories (all colours of rosette) for centuries. Part of the problem is that many poliicians, etc, actually *believe* the tripe they trot out!

 

[Enfield boy]

Certainly happened in parts of London with Broadwater Farm and the racism of the police etc

Indeed, a GE 2019 map of London shows strong support for Labour. I don't suppose that'll be city banker types. I know I've said it before but my experience working for Royal Mail and on the Railway was eye opening for the racism and pro fascist attitudes I saw. I tried to explain this at local CLP meetings and was greeted with surprise, the naivety and blinkered outlook of Labour activists in Buckinghamshire was quite amazing. The racism and fascism in highly unionised workplaces was sickening.

 

[Kirk]

The reality is that change can only occur via Westminster if people vote for what they truly need/want regardless of the presumption that its only a binary race between clones. The "Labour is the only alternative" religion simply becomes a self-sustaining prophecy.

Vote for what you *want* to become stronger, and the policies that will genuinely lead to improvements. Stand up and actually be honestly counted. At least that way you can say "Not in my name" if you fail. And if the votes for 'minor' parties rises, it can encourage others to do the same next time round.

Frankly, one way or another, we won't get out of the mess being made until people do the above. Between Climate Change and the Chumocracy we'll otherwise just be sacrificed to allow the ultra-wealthy to survive the fire that will burn the rest of us and our children. Validating the belief of the Tories (in all places) that we are here to be exploited by them.

All good points. Maybe the left can reply.

 

[Kirk]

Are you fourteen years old? I really couldn’t give a shit in this instance about Mick Lynch’s inconsistency. The fact that a major trade union is offering support to Corbyn to stand as an independent is a hugely welcome development.

Please, in future, do spare me your impressive political perspicacity. It’s wasted on me: you cast your pearls before swine.

Lynch's advice is sound and is targeted to people like you. Supporting Corbyn is simply a PR move. Lynch knows where the power lies.

 

[Dave H.]

Not sure what you mean. What is right wing or cesspit about reporting Reeves words. She is conflating antisemitism with anti Israel protests and urging police action. If “unhinged” is inappropriate, how would you describe her intentions.

It’s not reporting. The words are emotive, inflammatory and don’t match the content of the video (even if, as I acknowledged above, she might have said things elsewhere that matched the words more closely).

The reason it matters is that that way of twisting language is a material part of the media-political cesspit we find ourselves in. The Gatekeepers on Radio 4 earlier today touched on similar themes, strangely enough.

And your own last reply to me emphatically said that unhinged wasn’t appropriate. Malign, manipulative, disingenuous, those might work, and I’ve said that she should be held responsible for the things she actually is and says and does. But not unhinged and you know it - indeed you said it.

Since you’re contradicting yourself from one post to the next and apparently not reading the tweet when you repost it, I’m afraid I don’t have the energy to engage any more.

 

[Tony L]

This excellent piece of journalism from Owen Jones could have gone in any number of current threads; rise of the far-right, Sunak, Israel/Palestine etc, but I’ll stick it here as it confronts Labour’s ingrained racism head-on and looks at its history, e.g. Phil Woolas’s disgraceful election many years ago. Definitely worth a watch.

 

[gavreid]

This excellent piece of journalism from Owen Jones could have gone in any number of current threads; rise of the far-right, Sunak, Israel/Palestine etc, but I’ll stick it here as it confronts Labour’s ingrained racism head-on and looks at its history, e.g. Phil Woolas’s disgraceful election many years ago. Definitely worth a watch.

Jones has been fantastic these past few months, it's hard to believe that he's not been sacked yet!

I remember Simon Hughes though going along with the gay witch hunt against Peter Tatchell in Bermondsey (when Kinnock boasted that he knew the difference between a witch and a fairy) and then coming out himself a bit later. There's no honour among politicians.

 

[Finnegan]

I remember Simon Hughes though going along with the gay witch hunt against Peter Tatchell in Bermondsey.

Speaking of Tatch, he was on The World Tonight last night spouting his worn out ‘you can’t be racist against Muslims because Islam isn’t a race’ bollox. Sadly, sometimes there’s no honour between oppressed and marginalised groups either.